- 14 Oct 13, 07:01#376222
Yeah mnm, I'm sorry, I've warmed to a lot of your posts and threads recently, but on this one, you're way off and I'm afraid it's your own major bias that is evident here.
As with all research, the context has to be comparable otherwise it is not good research. There are such clear differences between these two different events that it is simply impossible to compare the two and draw comparable conclusions. And remember that when I say this - I like Vettel. Much has already been said by others here, but one other major point relates to awareness:
In the Vettel / Webber incident, the same order was given that the positions would not change. Therefore Webber didn't know an attack was coming until it was too late, he was ill-prepared to then defend, and by the time he tried to defend it was too late - his engine had been turned down and Vettel's hadn't been - i.e. it is indisputedly an unfair fight as at that point they are using literally different equipment. Webber was not aware that he was going to be attacked.
In the Alonso / Massa incident, Whether he ignored or complied with the order, Massa knew and was prepared for Alonso coming, and so any fight would be a fair fight. Massa was aware of what was coming and simply gave himself a 50/50 chance of defending or losing the place.
This awareness / lack of awareness alone makes the incidents vastly different, and that's in addition to what everyone else is also saying.
Now overall - do I agree with disobeying team orders when you are being paid by that team? Well it depends on the context of the order. In general I don't think team orders should come into play until one driver is mathematically out of the championship. In this case, Ferrari only had Alonso to count on, so I understand the order and have sympathy for it. So I don't begrudge Ferrari for giving the order. However with Massa fighting for his career, I can equally understand him deciding that he wants to show his true level (whether he is at that level of not is a whole other thread!), as by not doing so, he may well lose out on potential interest from other teams.
In other words - nothing is black or white when it comes to these team order / disobeying issues. You cannot compare the incomparable - and that is exactly the case here.
As with all research, the context has to be comparable otherwise it is not good research. There are such clear differences between these two different events that it is simply impossible to compare the two and draw comparable conclusions. And remember that when I say this - I like Vettel. Much has already been said by others here, but one other major point relates to awareness:
In the Vettel / Webber incident, the same order was given that the positions would not change. Therefore Webber didn't know an attack was coming until it was too late, he was ill-prepared to then defend, and by the time he tried to defend it was too late - his engine had been turned down and Vettel's hadn't been - i.e. it is indisputedly an unfair fight as at that point they are using literally different equipment. Webber was not aware that he was going to be attacked.
In the Alonso / Massa incident, Whether he ignored or complied with the order, Massa knew and was prepared for Alonso coming, and so any fight would be a fair fight. Massa was aware of what was coming and simply gave himself a 50/50 chance of defending or losing the place.
This awareness / lack of awareness alone makes the incidents vastly different, and that's in addition to what everyone else is also saying.
Now overall - do I agree with disobeying team orders when you are being paid by that team? Well it depends on the context of the order. In general I don't think team orders should come into play until one driver is mathematically out of the championship. In this case, Ferrari only had Alonso to count on, so I understand the order and have sympathy for it. So I don't begrudge Ferrari for giving the order. However with Massa fighting for his career, I can equally understand him deciding that he wants to show his true level (whether he is at that level of not is a whole other thread!), as by not doing so, he may well lose out on potential interest from other teams.
In other words - nothing is black or white when it comes to these team order / disobeying issues. You cannot compare the incomparable - and that is exactly the case here.
Favourite racing series: F1, Indycar, NASCAR, GP2, F3, Formula E, Trophee Andros, DTM, WTCC, BTCC, World Endurance... etc. etc.
. Just sadly funny to see how people care only about their agenda and are willing to change the standards to fit it.
It is obvious from your opening post that you had already made your mind up what people were going to think about the situation before even letting them post.