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[CookinFlat6]

In a demonstration of the limitations of a statistical climax, here is the contect to the 1978 Aus GP, the guys who started at the front of the grid all crashed out and the eventual second and third placed guys started 11th and 14th. All the major contenders crashed out

The crowds for the Austrian GP were full of Niki Lauda fans; but however for them Lauda qualified only 12th as the Lotus cars again took the front row, with Ronnie Peterson on pole. The surprise in qualifying was Jean-Pierre Jabouille who qualified his turbocharged Renault third. The start saw Peterson lead into the first corner, with Carlos Reutemann snatching second from Mario Andretti. Andretti tried to get the place back later in the lap, but the two collided and Andretti retired after his car spun into the barriers while Reutemann lost a couple of places to Patrick Depailler and Jody Scheckter. On the fourth lap, a heavy rainshower hit the track and Reutemann spun off and was beached but the marshals push-started his car as it was in a dangerous position, while Scheckter crashed out, and the race was stopped.

The race restarted after the rain relented, and once again Peterson led followed by Depailler and Lauda. As the track began to dry, Peterson started to pull away, and behind, Reutemann was on a charge and passed Lauda for third but he was black-flagged for receiving outside assistance, and Lauda crashed out soon after, leaving Gilles Villeneuve third. The drivers changed to slicks but the top 3 remained the same and stayed so till the end; Peterson winning ahead of Depailler, with Villeneuve taking his first ever podium.

compare that context to Seb pulling a 32 second gap over 15 laps or the fan car slaughtering the field with sheer pace advantage

[racechick]

Well I know which one gets my juices flowing!!!

[mnmracer]

Right, because there is no context whatsoever to Singapore
The list of wins of more than 30 seconds goes on and on and on.
The simplistic broken-record mantra of Singapore just shows a complete lack of understanding of Formula One.

[What's Burning?]

Just watching a video on the Brabham Fan car, it won it's first and only race by 34 seconds.... Remind you of anything?

Did it make up those 34 seconds in the last 15 laps of the race? And the car was deemed illegal after that, so I do see your comparison. Thank you for pointing that out.

[mnmracer]

Was the Ferrari 312T2 also illegal? Was the McLaren MP 4/4 also illegal? What about the Ferrari F300? Illegal?
Or maybe, just maybe, the whole premise of "if you win by 30 seconds, your car must be illegal" is a 100% deceptive and false statement.

[What's Burning?]

Was the Ferrari 312T2 also illegal? Was the McLaren MP 4/4 also illegal? What about the Ferrari F300? Illegal?
Or maybe, just maybe, the whole premise of "if you win by 30 seconds, your car must be illegal" is a 100% deceptive and false statement.

Will you address the 15 laps along with the 32 seconds or is that inconvenient for you therefore you choose to ignore it? In today's F1 2 second gaps don't exist. So either address it or just stop attacking others for their rationalization.

[stonemonkey]

To know if the car's legal or not, you have to know what it is about it. There's definitely something(s) about the RB that are giving Vettel part of his advantage, whether it's legal or not I don't see why it shouldn't be discussed or speculated on even if some of the speculation is that there's something illegal.

[spankyham]

Will you address the 15 laps along with the 32 seconds ......

That's a fair question and, personally, I'd like to read a response that addresses that question. It's interesting that since Minardi raised that fundamental question immediately Singapore, and given all the time since, there has not been one attempt by the team to provide a rational explanation.

I'm definitely not in the camp that says this automatically means Red Bull is cheating, but I would like a reasonable explanation to what is a reasonable question.

I would add one more element to that question, and that is, given that at the previous race there was only a few seconds difference at the end of the race, how has Red Bull managed to create such an incredible difference in the space of one race, when teams have, over recent years, struggled to make up one or two tenths?

[Roth]

Right, because there is no context whatsoever to Singapore
The list of wins of more than 30 seconds goes on and on and on.
The simplistic broken-record mantra of Singapore just shows a complete lack of understanding of Formula One.

The simplistic broken-record mantra of Monza '08 just shows a complete lack of understanding of Formula One... but it doesn't stop people banging on about it.

Vettel's success doesn't sit right with people because it's so outlandish as to be unnatural. Therefore it must be mechanical. I begrudgingly gave Schumacher his due because underneath all the skulduggery you knew he was a phenominal driver. What annoyed me most about him was I don't think he needed the tricks to succeed. Senna proved time and time again, good cars and bad, he was a great driver but not always a true sportsman. Vettel has shown he can drive a really fast car really fast, and is a petulant, entitled s***.

As a sort of comparison to Red Bull - the Williams from 92-97 dominated F1, all Newey designed, four from six champion drivers, despite Senna's death, and all different. If any of those top drivers had stayed at the team they would have had the same success as Vettel. Senna, Prost and Mansell had proved their worth by the time they joined or rejoined Williams- the fact Hill and Villeneve also won in these cars, two good drivers but not great ones, shows how influential a car is to the driver's success. Hill and Villeneuve did little of consequence outside WIlliams. Vettel won a wet Monza outside a Red Bull, but inside a Newey car.

So the gist of this is, I don't care how Red Bull do it, legal or illegal - diffusers, TC, flexiwings, flux capacitor - but they do something that makes that car on any given day unbeatable. Which makes the driver it is increasingly built around unbeatable. And fair enough, but don't expect anyone to state that Vettel is making any kind of noticeable difference from its performance than half a dozen drivers would do.

[What's Burning?]

You should consider posting more often Roth.

[racechick]

Excellent post Roth

[bud]

Was the Ferrari 312T2 also illegal? Was the McLaren MP 4/4 also illegal? What about the Ferrari F300? Illegal?
Or maybe, just maybe, the whole premise of "if you win by 30 seconds, your car must be illegal" is a 100% deceptive and false statement.

Will you address the 15 laps along with the 32 seconds or is that inconvenient for you therefore you choose to ignore it? In today's F1 2 second gaps don't exist. So either address it or just stop attacking others for their rationalization.

I think unless any one of us is an engineer then we cannot really rationalise how or why Redbull built such a lead in 15 laps. For we cannot say for certain that they were running a form of traction control that bypasses the control ECU. What we do know is that the Redbull cars have consistently been winning, consistently been accused of breaking the rules but most importantly, they have consistently been passing scrutineering.
So fair play to them!

[What's Burning?]

Was the Ferrari 312T2 also illegal? Was the McLaren MP 4/4 also illegal? What about the Ferrari F300? Illegal?
Or maybe, just maybe, the whole premise of "if you win by 30 seconds, your car must be illegal" is a 100% deceptive and false statement.

Will you address the 15 laps along with the 32 seconds or is that inconvenient for you therefore you choose to ignore it? In today's F1 2 second gaps don't exist. So either address it or just stop attacking others for their rationalization.

I think unless any one of us is an engineer then we cannot really rationalise how or why Redbull built such a lead in 15 laps. For we cannot say for certain that they were running a form of traction control that bypasses the control ECU. What we do know is that the Redbull cars have consistently been winning, consistently been accused of breaking the rules but most importantly, they have consistently been passing scrutineering.
So fair play to them!

And I couldn't agree with you more bud.

But not getting caught does not mean you didn't do it... ask Lance. The mountain of circumstantial evidence does exist. But yet the point is being made that we shouldn't even be talking about it.

[CookinFlat6]

agreed Bud, fair play to the team. And if Merc were to produce an engine with a 100BHP advantage next year we would similarly congratulate them

The issue here is those who insist that the 2 Red Bull cars are the same, or that the Red Bull has been no better a car than other teams in the past 4 years and that it is purely Seb making the difference.

And then you have those who claim it morally unacceptable to question the legality of the Red Bull or to question the ability of a driver to pull a 32 sec gap in 15 laps over a car a coupl of tenths slower in quali trim.

And then you have those who claim Newey and Red Bull would never do anything illegal

[mnmracer]

Was the Ferrari 312T2 also illegal? Was the McLaren MP 4/4 also illegal? What about the Ferrari F300? Illegal?
Or maybe, just maybe, the whole premise of "if you win by 30 seconds, your car must be illegal" is a 100% deceptive and false statement.

Will you address the 15 laps along with the 32 seconds or is that inconvenient for you therefore you choose to ignore it? In today's F1 2 second gaps don't exist. So either address it or just stop attacking others for their rationalization.

In today's F1 2 second gaps don't exist?
How big is the gap between Ferrari and the backmarkers?
Does that mean Ferrari is cheating? Does it mean the backmarkers are designing a different type of car?
Or do 2 second gaps exist under certain circumstances? Circumstances like designing a better car. Circumstances such as one car and driver being on top of their game, the car behind not only not being on top of their game but also being handicapped with a stuffed front wing?