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[LRW]

Maybe he can't afford to blab.

[What's Burning?]

Maybe the state of the relationship means they do not trust mark not to blab

Hey it's not like they done Mark wrong ever.

[Zekenwolf]

If they'd put it on Mark's car as well he'd have most likely said something if he knew it was there. Vettel doesn't care how he wins.

So you are already assuming that Vettel's car had an unfair advantage? All because he was so quick and his car sounded different? If this isn't a bigoted way of seeing things, I don't know what else is. Especially rich considering that the only team that were questioned about the legality of their actions thus far this season were Mercedes on that Tyregate affair and cars driven by Rosberg and your precious Hamilton.

As I mentioned before, if Red Bull really had something in Vettel's car that shouldn't be there, would they allow him to pull out that big an advantage and draw everyone's attention?

Secondly, I am sure all the staff from other teams would have heard those 'engine sounds' that you lot are laying eggs over. Why are they not lodging official protests or even making media noises? Ferrari? Mercedes?

[Jabberwocky]

I wonder if engineers etc of other team get to spend that much time watching the cars on track? Do teams send "Watchers" out to grand prixs... I had never thought ofvthat before

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 4

[operaman]

Besides, exploiting the grey areas of the rules is not really cheating is it? Now if Red Bull were using a device to control ride height from within the cockpit (which is expressly forbidden), that would be cheating.

[racechick]

Maybe the state of the relationship means they do not trust mark not to blab

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 4

exactly!

[spankyham]

Besides, exploiting the grey areas of the rules is not really cheating is it? Now if Red Bull were using a device to control ride height from within the cockpit (which is expressly forbidden), that would be cheating.

I guess that would always be one of my biggest "beefs" with the FiA and its officials. About the only thing that has been consistent about the FiA is how inconsistent they have been in acting and interpreting.

[spankyham]

If they'd put it on Mark's car as well he'd have most likely said something if he knew it was there. Vettel doesn't care how he wins.

So you are already assuming that Vettel's car had an unfair advantage? .... If this isn't a bigoted way of seeing things, I don't know what else is.

Perhaps you missed the "if" at the start of RC's post

As I mentioned before, if Red Bull really had something in Vettel's car that shouldn't be there, would they allow him to pull out that big an advantage and draw everyone's attention?

Playing the devil's advocate here, perhaps the opposite question may be just as relevant. If Seb clearly had such a huge advantage, why would he use it so sparingly?

Secondly, I am sure all the staff from other teams would have heard those 'engine sounds' that you lot are laying eggs over. Why are they not lodging official protests or even making media noises? Ferrari? Mercedes?

Having questions doesn't immediately equal protest. Also, protests are really a secondary thing, the first level is for the FiA to enforce the rules - no need for a team to protest to have that happen.

Personally I think it far more likely there will be a legitimate explanation to Minardi's questions. However, I think he raised his questions in a fair manner. I also think people unfairly attacked him for simply saying he felt the anomalies he highlighted deserved answers. Personally I'd like Red Bull to come out and provide the fans some reasonable explanations.

[Zekenwolf]

Perhaps you missed the "if" at the start of RC's post

No, I didn't. That's why there was an 'if' in my rejoinder too.

OK Spanky, I agree with what you have said. But it does seem unfair to assume that Red Bull / Vettel or guilty without solid evidence. With all those parc ferme inspections, telemetry data etc I would have thought that any on-track irregularity would have been exposed and questioned by now.

But with so may spectators, supporters (of other teams), officials, critics, commentators, media and above all other team staff present at the race, you would have thought that someone other than Giancarlo Minardi would have lodged in a protest by now about that engine note or something else. So far they have not; yes, some others might start jumping into the fray now that Minardi has voiced his misgivings but you know as well as I do that it is not the same thing. If there was indeed such an obvious infringement, surely someone else would have independently noticed it?

[What's Burning?]

How many results have been invalidated in the past because teams had a wing or width that was 1 centimeter off? By results, meaning cars that were allowed to run after scrpteneering because, we'll they passed. Do you think every single part of every single car is inspected every single session? Do you think that if Red Bull had found such an advantage they'd be taking it the FiA to check for its legality first before implementing it or like the flapping wings of last season use them as long as they could until the tests eventually caught up with the?

The ride height question of last year has been asked and ZW, I think it's a valid example of how a team such as Red Bull would try and cheat and was stopped of doing so, probably got away with it for quite some time. But yet you still become indignant that questions are being asked?

Drivers have commented as to how controlled Seb's qualifying time looked in the onboard, as if he wasn't even struggling, and you don't think questions should be asked?

Lap times, at will that we're 2.5 seconds faster than the field are being out down lap after lap and you don't want questions asked?

Whatever Red Bull came up with, good for them if it's legal, good for them if they keep the secret and keep the advantage for a long time. Good for them if they're able to put it in Mark's car in Korea as we'll. Which is the likeliest explanation, they just had time to put it in one car. But not good for Red Bull if what they're doing is illegal, because you're being hypocritical, making the same assumptions abut Red Bull being beyond reproach, and Red Bull being able to succeed on their dynamic duo, Newey and Seb's talents alone when we've seen time and time again questionable and illegal technical implementations used in the past recent past.

So don't get all hot under the collar when someone questions why. We'll find out more this week.

[Zekenwolf]

But not good for Red Bull if what they're doing is illegal, because you're being hypocritical, making the same assumptions abut Red Bull being beyond reproach.

We'll find out more this week.

I certainly do not claim that Red Bull are beyond reproach. No one is and they are not even my favourite team. But until there is clear evidnce to show that there have been transgressions, outright accusations have to be withheld. Of course people can still ask questions but some of those questions on these forums are deliberately phrased in such a way that guilt is assumed.

Also, how exactly do you propose to 'find out' this week? If Vettel is nearly as dominant as in Singapore, you lot will say "There, we told you so - the car should be impounded" etc. On the other hand, if Vettel fails to dominate, you'll say "There, that proves that he was cheating in Singapore! RBR got cold feet and removed that gizmo!" or something similar. So this is a carefully planned "Between the Devil & the Deep Sea" situation, isn't it?

Speaking of impounding Vettel's car, I actually wish that they do so because that will prove things one way or another. But in the same vein that you asked me before, let me ask you a similar question - If they do impound the car, check it and find that there is nothing illegal about it, will you be prepared accept the verdict? I will, if it is the other way around.

[Big Azza]

It's all speculation and not worth getting worked up about, I feel. I do think it would be interesting to entertain "What if's" however, at least to keep us occupied until the start of the next grand prix.

I don't think anyone here is actually stating that they believe Minardi, they just want his questions answered.

I think Minardi has made some very valid questions, but I do not believe Red Bull are cheating. I do believe that Newey is very innovative and will find ways to eek out performance advantages that no one has ever thought of.

There is one very clear answer as to why Seb was so fast that day. It has been well documented that the softer tires were 2.2 secs per lap quicker than the prime tires. Seb was the only driver to have kept a completely fresh set of super softs. Alonso was on well worn primes.

Perhaps Vettel's brilliance around Singapore could account for the remaining 3 tenths of second. So I believe that answers the question of why Seb was so fast that day. Bam! Case closed!

That might also account for why he was up to speed so quick - I'm not sure entirely. As to the different sounding engine - the exhaust blown diffuser caused funny engine noises in the past, so I would assume it's probably some Newey invention.

[Zekenwolf]

I do not believe Red Bull are cheating. I do believe that Newey is very innovative and will find ways to eek out performance advantages that no one has ever thought of.

That might quite well be so. If Newey has found a way of achieving optimal results by working within the stipulated regulations, RBR cannot be accused of having an unfair advantage simply because the others have not thought of it yet.

[Big Azza]

I do not believe Red Bull are cheating. I do believe that Newey is very innovative and will find ways to eek out performance advantages that no one has ever thought of.

That might quite well be so. If Newey has found a way of achieving optimal results by working within the stipulated regulations, RBR cannot be accused of having an unfair advantage simply because the others have not thought of it yet.

Exactly what I mean. Newey is good at thinking of new innovations before everyone else. One technology that comes to mind is the Williams in 1994 that Senna fatally crashed in, and it's wacky innovative steering....

For me, the whole point of F1 is innovating and developing new technologies to be quicker than everyone else. Otherwise, they would just implement a spec-series.

[What's Burning?]

Of course people can still ask questions but some of those questions on these forums are deliberately phrased in such a way that guilt is assumed.

... and so what? It's a forum where people come to shoot the breeze and talk crap and pass the time. Why are you taking this so personally?

Also, how exactly do you propose to 'find out' this week? If Vettel is nearly as dominant as in Singapore, you lot will say "There, we told you so - the car should be impounded" etc. On the other hand, if Vettel fails to dominate, you'll say "There, that proves that he was cheating in Singapore! RBR got cold feet and removed that gizmo!" or something similar. So this is a carefully planned "Between the Devil & the Deep Sea" situation, isn't it?

Yeap, you got it, two options and one of them will happen. Well, because it's happened at least twice before, three times if you count the engine overrun. I'm sure Red Bull are smart enough not to get caught and when it's looked into, it's no longer being used, and they got a nice advantage while it lasted. Just like the wing, just like the ride height, just like whatever it is that got them this jump in performance, and that should do nicely to wrap things up in two more races I would think.

Whether it's cheating or gray area, if they're doing something right (especially if it's an innovative way to skirt regulations) more power to them. Like I said though, why take the questions as offensive when it's so prevalent in recent Red Bull history and it's just repeating itself?

Speaking of impounding Vettel's car, I actually wish that they do so because that will prove things one way or another. But in the same vein that you asked me before, let me ask you a similar question - If they do impound the car, check it and find that there is nothing illegal about it, will you be prepared accept the verdict? I will, if it is the other way around.

I've accepted the verdict twice already with Red Bull, this one will be a third time around, it's just a team skirting the rules and getting away with it, just like you wanted to throw the book at Mercedes for doing.

We'll find out more this week.

Also, how exactly do you propose to 'find out' this week?

All we've got to do is let the events unfold, it's happened before, plenty.