FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[Big Azza]

:vomit: sorry Big Azza. He's done nothing yet to show me he's ahead of Hamilton and Alonso. Just as Schumacher didn't do anything to show me he was better than Senna.

There probably is more to come from Vettel, certainly there is from Hamilton.

I know we will disagree on this, but I think Vettel has done every bit to show he's at least going to be remembered more so than Hamilton at this rate.

If Hamilton only stops at 1 WDC (which he won by 2 corners and 1 measly point) and Vettel stops at 4. I don't think my grand children will pay too much attention to Hamilton.

If Vettel finished his career with seven world championships and 80-odd wins, compared to Hamilton with one world championship and 30 odd wins, I honestly think Hamilton's legacy would almost fade into oblivion in years to come....

But again, time will only tell.

I think Vettel has certainly already done enough to be regarded as a legend in the sport, even if that recognition won't come until after his time in the sport has come to an end.

Alonso I think has maybe just done enough as well, but he really is due to win a championship soon.

But if I mentioned the following names, are they regarded as a legend in the sport?

Jacques Villeneuve
Jody Scheckter
Keke Rosberg
Phil Hill
Alan Jones
Guiseppe Farina
Mike Hawthorn

Sure, they have all won well-deserved championships, but aren't really regarded as legends. Hamilton will surely eclipse all these names if he went on to win many more Grands Prix. Perhaps he will make a similar contribution to Nigel Mansell...

But in current situation in F1, I still cannot see Hamilton winning another World Championship. However, I will gladly embrace it if he does add to his existing world championship - but currently a cloud exists over that one for me.

I hope you don't view my response as being wildly divisive or trouble-making. This is just my opinion which I'd like to express.

[Zekenwolf]

Why
And I wonder why so many Vettel fans find it difficult to accept that there are two others drivers out there at least as good as Vettel? I wonder if its because of niggling doubts that perhaps the car is rather more a feature than they care to admit? Just a thought.

On the contrary, I completely accept that Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton and in his own way Raikkonen are all in the same league. Differences in results depend on several variables like the car set-up, driving style, the track geography, the weather on the day and other dirvers around. NOT simply "Newey's car" like some like to bleat about.

May I point out RC that it was you, in the posts above who suggested that Vettel was not as good as Hamilton or Alonso? I never made a similar contrasting statement to support Vettel. I just believe that he is as good as the results show.

And I though I don't like Hamilton, I am not egoistic enough to think that he or any other F1 driver has to show me anything to prove himself in my esteem. As I have said elsewhere, to reach the stage of an F1 driver is in itself a major achievement in anyone's career.

[LRW]

At the end of the day, what makes a driver a 'Legend' is all pretty much subjective.

RC for instance probably thinks LH is a Legend because of his driving style, and not his no. of championships.
Where as Big Azza seems to be putting the emphasis on results, for entrance into the Legend category.

Neither of you are wrong, and both of you will probably feel this way until your dying days.

Regardless of how either driver is seen by the record books, you should both still retell stories (to your future grandchildren) of how amazing they were, and that you were lucky enough to see them drive. Its all about the passion for the sport, and that's what we want to pass onto the future generations.

[Zekenwolf]

I agree with you LRW but in a competition, especially a multimillion dollar (or pound, euro) sport like F1, results do matter... a lot. Not just for the record books but for sponsorships and all that - you know what I mean.

F1 is the sort of game where the best driver should be considered as one who makes use of the best available conditions to maximise his position in the race. This may not always be the winner - for example if the leader has a DNF in the last lap or is shunted out by another - but one who gets the best out of the circumstances. It is in that department that Vettel has done well and that is the reason he has 3 WDCs. Having a good car alone is not enough for this, not the least because that car would not be the best on every track under all conditions. That is where this "it is all Newey" arguement falls flat on its face.

Alonso was the best driver in Spain, Hamilton in Hungary and Vettel in Canada just to take 3 examples of what I am trying to say.

[sagi58]

At the end of the day, what makes a driver a 'Legend' is all pretty much subjective...

Completely agree! And, depending upon how well our "favourite legend" does in the standings,
there will always be subjective justifications and subjective explanations as to why we believe
so strongly that our "favourite legend" is better than anyone else's "favourite legend"!!

[racechick]

At the end of the day, what makes a driver a 'Legend' is all pretty much subjective.

RC for instance probably thinks LH is a Legend because of his driving style, and not his no. of championships.
Where as Big Azza seems to be putting the emphasis on results, for entrance into the Legend category.

Neither of you are wrong, and both of you will probably feel this way until your dying days.

Regardless of how either driver is seen by the record books, you should both still retell stories (to your future grandchildren) of how amazing they were, and that you were lucky enough to see them drive. Its all about the passion for the sport, and that's what we want to pass onto the future generations.

Absolutely LRW. For me driver is a legend for what he does with the car, which is why I rate Senna over Schumacher. I would also include Moss and Gilles V in my legend list, neither of whom won a championship.

Zekenwolf, I've always maintained their are three drivers above the rest in this current crop( with Kimi knocking on the door) how you order those three is a matter of opinion, yes I put Hamilton first, because I value the skills he brings more, but that's just my view, you clearly rate Vettel higher, and yet others will put Alonso first, you can't order them, because you cant quantify their skills, it's just subjective, what a person prefers.

[Zekenwolf]

Zekenwolf, I've always maintained their are three drivers above the rest in this current crop( with Kimi knocking on the door) how you order those three is a matter of opinion, yes I put Hamilton first, because I value the skills he brings more, but that's just my view, you clearly rate Vettel higher, and yet others will put Alonso first, you can't order them, because you cant quantify their skills, it's just subjective, what a person prefers.

Of course. And if I am going to see an F1 race in person, I'd rather go with someone passionate (I meant about the sport....I'm not hitting on you ) and madly cheer for someone, even if that someone is not one I support. Sometimes it is more fun to sit alongside opposing fans just to throw banter at each other (as long as it remains that and does not turn too rowdy like in football) depending on who's winning.

PS: I thought I was going to Spa this year till I found out how much the hotels in Malmedy were charging.

[What's Burning?]

Lebron James was with the Cleveland Cavaliers from 2003 to 20010 He was the rookie of the year in 2004, played in every All Star game to date. Won Multiple All Star MVP awards and was regarded as the best player in the game with little argument, and certainly the greatest since Michael Jordan.

So in 2010 he Joined the Miami Heat, because they were looking to build a championship winning team. Since, he's not become any better a player, but he's now got two championships in a high dollar purpose built team

It's certainly easier to point to wikipedia and say he was a champion therefore he was great, but in my opinion It was always more fun watching him play for the Cavs fighting like hell for the titles he never got there.

[Big Azza]

At the end of the day, what makes a driver a 'Legend' is all pretty much subjective.

RC for instance probably thinks LH is a Legend because of his driving style, and not his no. of championships.
Where as Big Azza seems to be putting the emphasis on results, for entrance into the Legend category.

Neither of you are wrong, and both of you will probably feel this way until your dying days.

Regardless of how either driver is seen by the record books, you should both still retell stories (to your future grandchildren) of how amazing they were, and that you were lucky enough to see them drive. Its all about the passion for the sport, and that's what we want to pass onto the future generations.

I can't really put any words to say how much I like this post LRW....

[Big Azza]

Lebron James was with the Cleveland Cavaliers from 2003 to 20010 He was the rookie of the year in 2004, played in every All Star game to date. Won Multiple All Star MVP awards and was regarded as the best player in the game with little argument, and certainly the greatest since Michael Jordan.

So in 2010 he Joined the Miami Heat, because they were looking to build a championship winning team. Since, he's not become any better a player, but he's now got two championships in a purpose built team

It's certainly easier to point to wikipedia and say he was a champion therefore he was great, but in my opinion It was always more fun watching him play for the Cavs fighting like hell for the titles he never got there.

In Rugby League over here my favourite team, The North Queensland Cowboys have a player called Jonathan Thurston who is without a doubt one of the best Rugby League players in the world. The Cowboys are an average team, and continually disappoint... But come State of Origin time (which is a very big deal over here) Jonathan Thurston has been picked as part of the Queensland Team that has won 8 series straight. But the beauty is that Jonathan Thurston is the only player in the side to have played in EVERY State of Origin match throughout those 8 years. So it seems like he is similar to Lebron James in that respect.

However if I brought to your attention the case of the late Sir Donald Bradman. That guy is indisputably the greatest player to ever grace the game of cricket.

Wisden hailed Bradman as, "the greatest phenomenon in the history of cricket, indeed in the history of all ball games".Statistician Charles Davis analysed the statistics for several prominent sportsmen by comparing the number of standard deviations that they stand above the mean for their sport. The top performers in his selected sports are:



The statistics show that "no other athlete dominates an international sport to the extent that Bradman does cricket".In order to post a similarly dominant career statistic as Bradman, a baseball batter would need a career batting average of .392, while a basketball player would need to score an average of 43.0 points per game.The respective records are .366 and 30.1.

That is why I think statistics quantify greatness. I would love to see someone dominate Formula One so much that it would be deemed Bradman-esque. But I guess in F1 that is pretty much impossible, because of all the variables thrown up with different technology.

I guess we cannot compare formula one drivers to basket ball players, or cricket players....

[darwin dali]

I guess we cannot compare formula one drivers to basket ball players, or cricket players....

I sure hope not.

[Zekenwolf]

I guess we cannot compare formula one drivers to basket ball players, or cricket players....

Why not? To be a top echelon F1 driver, one's got to have balls......

[What's Burning?]

I guess we cannot compare formula one drivers to basket ball players, or cricket players....

Correct, there's only one black guy in F1.

[1Lemon]

http://f1pulse.com/news/2013091330/vettel-skipped-webbers-european-farewell-party

Vettel is so respectful....

Sebastian Vettel skipped the farewell party, attended by several other drivers and F1 team personnel, with the German sitting in the floor below playing with his iPhone, according to the Bild.

[What's Burning?]

At least one thing in that write up is blatantly false. Webber was as the Montreal celebratory photo shoot. I saw him, personally. Anyway, Massa is going to get a more warm sendoff by Alonso, I'm sure.