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[Hammer278]

What people are disputing is his 'brilliance' in driving the best car away from others simply because of his 'brilliance' and not the car.

The double standard is people attributing that to Alonso and in one sweep attribute everything Vettel does to Newey. You only have to go back one page to see that happen. As if Alonso is driving a Minardi, rather than the most successful team in the history of Formula One. Do you wanna do a quick count to how often "Alonso" "Ferrari" and "dog of a car" are mentioned in relation to each other?

Many Vettel fans actually think he is worth his WDCs relative to Alonso and Hamilton, when the simply answer in this sport is the machinery which plays a massive massive part and it is indeed very difficult to say who's the best driver out of these 3.

Which is why we have our own perceptions, preferred style, and find our favourite points in each of these 3 + Kimi. What I think is annoying at this stage is how Vettel is hailed as simply the best....akin to the time of the famous quote during Ferrari's glory days "Schumacher could win in a Minardi". Well well, we saw how that turned out when Renault gave a worthwhile fight from 2005 onwards.

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Quote please. Because that is an accusation which is constantly made, but does not actually happen. You're feeling the need to s*** on Vettel, and try to explain it away by making false claims about other people.

There's a quote in this very thread (or the Redbull one) where someone claimed that the Redbull is not actually "that good" but it was Vettel's "brilliance" which made the difference over Alonso and the rest of the field. This implies.............................Vettel is?
a) definitely as good as Alonso
b) definitely better than Alonso
c) not as good as Alonso

You have 1 guess.

[racechick]

In my view, to attain the status of a F1 driver, the individual has to be very good. To be chosen to work in a top team and retain that place, he has to be an excellent driver in the top league. Granted, Vettel, Alonso, Raikkonen and hamilton are all in that league.

I'm with you on much of what you say. I'd put Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso in that elite category, with Raikkonen and Rosberg knocking on the door. And how do you choose the best of those three? Well you can't. It comes down to one's personal preferences and allegiances. You'd need to have all three in the same car, at the same time, with the same conditions and the same pit stop servicing, then off you go lads...........it ain't gonna happen. The closest we had was Alonso and Hamilton in 2007.
What I would say is that 3 (almost 4) /2 /1 championships for those three drivers does not reflect their relative abilities, and I'd hazard a guess that whichever of those three drivers was in the Red Bull for the past few years would be the one with 3( almost four) championships.

My views on Vettel himself...out of the car I find him a personable, humorous and intelligent young man. In the car there are aspects of his personality I find distasteful. But that's just me, I'm sure all three of those drivers have aspects of their personality that irritate others. One cannot argue, that those three are three excellent young drivers!

[What's Burning?]

Because some of our members are unable to behave like adults, this thread will be locked for a while. Feel free to thank them personally.

This crap has to stop guys, if we can't have a discussion, however heated without name calling and personal attack, you will have an extended stay away from the forum in your future, for sure.

[What's Burning?]

Cooling period over. Let's enjoy the banter shall we?

[Zekenwolf]

But that's just me, I'm sure all three of those drivers have aspects of their personality that irritate others. One cannot argue, that those three are three excellent young drivers!

It is not just you, but all of us ie a human tendency. Speaking in F1 terms, we all tend to notice criticisable (assuming there is such a word) things in drivers we don't like while finding excuses to explain misdemeanours of those we do. Take me for instance; being a Vettel supporter, I tend to remember Alonso's 'carshgate' affair or Hamilton's 'Monkeys' comment while not being so critical of Vettel ignoring team orders in Malaysia.

Speaking more generally, a lot of us admire Ayrton Senna and rightfully so. But looking at it realistically, he too stretched...and maybe exceeded boundaries of sportsmanship on more than one occasion.

[racechick]

But that's just me, I'm sure all three of those drivers have aspects of their personality that irritate others. One cannot argue, that those three are three excellent young drivers!

It is not just you, but all of us ie a human tendency. Speaking in F1 terms, we all tend to notice criticisable (assuming there is such a word) things in drivers we don't like while finding excuses to explain misdemeanours of those we do. Take me for instance; being a Vettel supporter, I tend to remember Alonso's 'carshgate' affair or Hamilton's 'Monkeys' comment while not being so critical of Vettel ignoring team orders in Malaysia.

Speaking more generally, a lot of us admire Ayrton Senna and rightfully so. But looking at it realistically, he too stretched...and maybe exceeded boundaries of sportsmanship on more than one occasion.

He did indeed. And we forgive him and admire the huge talent, and try to understand and rationalise his actions, as I guess we do with our current favourites.

[Jabberwocky]

In some ways was senna the new father of formula 1. Think how the drivers are more ruthless than the likes of say fangio... maybe because of Senna and the change in vehicle safety drivers do not fear for other drivers lives when they oush them off the track etc

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[What's Burning?]

In some ways was senna the new father of formula 1. Think how the drivers are more ruthless than the likes of say fangio... maybe because of Senna and the change in vehicle safety drivers do not fear for other drivers lives when they oush them off the track etc

The problem is not the drivers, it's the media. The 24/7 access into people's lives that's got nothing to do with their performance on track. When the Rush movie is out next month, someone tell me what you think the outcome of James Hunt + and iPhone. The fact that a tourist bothers a driver while on vacation and there are some bad words exchanged, and twenty minutes later it's on the internet with "I CAN TYPING" commenting their opinion on the issue.

[Jabberwocky]

I was more on about driving standards than personal lifes

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[spankyham]

I was more on about driving standards than personal lifes

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It's an interesting comparison, and in some ways you are right on the money. But then again, I don't think even Aryton would have dragged the driver of the teams #2 car out of his seat and taken his seat because his own car was out of the race - but I believe Fangio, and a few other drivers of their era did exactly that.

Also, in Fangio's days a driver error would often = someone dies. A leather patch on the head was replaced by a real helmet.

[Zekenwolf]

The problem is not the drivers, it's the media.

Quite true. In those 'good old' days, top drivers got away with things which the current lot would not even consider if they wanted to keep their careers. Take Fangio for instance - a great driver without question but anything but a 'gentleman' that he is sometimes referred to as being. Fangio demanded and got pretty much what he wanted, including his teammate's car if he thought it was better. Also, he is known to have threatened to move to another team if he did not get what he wanted.

It is all relative, really. I wonder what the F1 fans of the time will think of the likes of Vettel, Alonso or Hamilton 50 years from now. Assuming of course, F1 still existed by then.

[CookinFlat6]

Seems Seb was confused by the booing from the crowd at Silverstone. Its a shame because i dont think it was the typical bash a German tradition. And Seb is a German who likes and gets British humour and is not your hateable type.


http://www.planetf1.com/news/3213/8906992/Vettel-Silverstone-Jeers-Were-Not-Fair

This could suggest that his mental focus and strength is not as we have been led to believe. Indeed he actually seems sensitive to things like Lewis is. And he let down his guard earlier this season, changing his story about why he robbed Webber of the win

Brings up the interesting question of whether Seb could have survived an early career as an ethnic minority in F1, if he finds booing unfair. How would the lad have coped with the crowd blacking up their faces?

[Zekenwolf]

Seems Seb was confused by the booing from the crowd at Silverstone. Its a shame because i dont think it was the typical bash a German tradition. And Seb is a German who likes and gets British humour and is not your hateable type.

This could suggest that his mental focus and strength is not as we have been led to believe. Indeed he actually seems sensitive to things like Lewis is. And he let down his guard earlier this season, changing his story about why he robbed Webber of the win

Brings up the interesting question of whether Seb could have survived an early career as an ethnic minority in F1, if he finds booing unfair. How would the lad have coped with the crowd blacking up their faces?

I have had a lot of German friends and colleagues over the years and find that I can usually get along well with them. A lot of them are sensitive to anti-German sentiments and obviously with good reason. Unlike the crass racial hatered like those blacking-up their faces etc, the situation here is a little bit different. With a lot of young Germans there is still a slight guilt feeling about the fact that they are German in the first place and so being identified as descendants of the N***s. I know it sounds silly, but in some of the remarks made by them, I have found this latent feeling.

That is why a lot of Germans, probaly including Vettel, are sensitive about booing or other forms of dislike aimed at them. And let us face it, there is still a lot of that in the UK and elsewhere.

History cannot be changed but somewhere along the line everyone has to move on.

[LRW]

The booing had NOTHING to do with him being German, I would say.

[Zekenwolf]

The booing had NOTHING to do with him being German, I would say.

Maybe, maybe not. If the general crowd reactions in the UK are anything to go by (for example, the greater 'fallout' of football defeat by Germany than any other team), I get the feeling that Vettel's nationality indeed had something to do with it.

But either way you cannot blame someone in Vettel's position for being sensitive about the booing.