FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[mnmracer]

What people are disputing is his 'brilliance' in driving the best car away from others simply because of his 'brilliance' and not the car.

The double standard is people attributing that to Alonso and in one sweep attribute everything Vettel does to Newey. You only have to go back one page to see that happen. As if Alonso is driving a Minardi, rather than the most successful team in the history of Formula One. Do you wanna do a quick count to how often "Alonso" "Ferrari" and "dog of a car" are mentioned in relation to each other?

Many Vettel fans actually think he is worth his WDCs relative to Alonso and Hamilton, when the simply answer in this sport is the machinery which plays a massive massive part and it is indeed very difficult to say who's the best driver out of these 3.

Which is why we have our own perceptions, preferred style, and find our favourite points in each of these 3 + Kimi. What I think is annoying at this stage is how Vettel is hailed as simply the best....akin to the time of the famous quote during Ferrari's glory days "Schumacher could win in a Minardi". Well well, we saw how that turned out when Renault gave a worthwhile fight from 2005 onwards.

,
Quote please. Because that is an accusation which is constantly made, but does not actually happen. You're feeling the need to s*** on Vettel, and try to explain it away by making false claims about other people.

[CookinFlat6]

Personally I like Seb. I think he is a great driver with a great winning mindset. Ever since he appeared with STR he was clearly a cut above most rookies. He has the most important ingredient for me, he is brave and fast. He can overtake and he can carve through the field. However to me its clear that he is not quite as good, dynamic, adaptable or fast as Lewis. The difference between the 2 is not about titles and stats, as these are always liable to be distorted by circumstance, the car and team around him being the biggest factors.

Everytime I have seen these 2 carve through the field, race in the wet, win from pole, overtake others, brake later, drive on Top gear , drive the car at its limits Lewis has done it better. I have no problem with Seb having 4 titles, he has earned them.

But only a child, would say that his 4 titles mean anything other than the package of Seb/car was the best 4 times. Thats different to saying Seb was the best 4 times. therefore Seb might have 4 titles and alonso 2, lewis 1, MS 7, but only a halfwit would say MS is twice as good as Seb etc etc

As for saying seb is so much better than everyone esle, that with a slower car his brilliance allows him to win is not so much real horse poo, more like a wooden rocking horse poo

[mnmracer]

But only a child, would say that his 4 titles mean anything other than the package of Seb/car was the best 4 times. Thats different to saying Seb was the best 4 times. therefore Seb might have 4 titles and alonso 2, lewis 1, MS 7, but only a halfwit would say MS is twice as good as Seb etc etc

As for saying seb is so much better than everyone esle, that with a slower car his brilliance allows him to win is not so much real horse poo, more like a wooden rocking horse poo

But who the f*** is saying that, other than the imaginary people you accuse of saying that?
What IS happening, is there being a mark over anything Vettel does, while every other day we are reminded about some combination of "Alonso" and "dog of a car".

[CookinFlat6]

But only a child, would say that his 4 titles mean anything other than the package of Seb/car was the best 4 times. Thats different to saying Seb was the best 4 times. therefore Seb might have 4 titles and alonso 2, lewis 1, MS 7, but only a halfwit would say MS is twice as good as Seb etc etc

As for saying seb is so much better than everyone esle, that with a slower car his brilliance allows him to win is not so much real horse poo, more like a wooden rocking horse poo

But who the f*** is saying that, other than the imaginary people you accuse of saying that?
What IS happening, is there being a mark over anything Vettel does, while every other day we are reminded about some combination of "Alonso" and "dog of a car".

In my view, "best car" is relative. As previously mentioned, the Red Bull has never been as fast as the main competition in a straight line until this Belgian GP. Tp make-up for that with superior cornering needs good driving, which is what Vettel did.

I take it you agree with this statement, as you do not seem to have disagreed with it

[Nin-Chin]

Because Alonso drove a dog of a car very well,this is why this has been mentioned alot.

[CookinFlat6]

Because Alonso drove a dog of a car very well,this is why this has been mentioned alot.

Interesting notion. Now early in 2012, there were a few races were Sebs car was 'adapting', not sure you would call it a dog, but lets say his car was tricky. How well did Seb do in that car compared to how well alonso did when his car was similarly tricky or doggish?

Maybe the Seb fans can furnish us with some stats

[Big Azza]

Oh apparently I'm making excuses,no no,I'm sharing my opinion

You're welcome to your opinion Nin-Chin. And I would like to pose my opinion in the form of a counter argument.

Mind you the McLaren was only fastest with 1 driver,the RB6 was extremly competitive that even Webber could qualify 2nd to Vettel on most circuits,showing its advantage with a average-ish driver.

These are the qualifying stats that I've dug up between Vettel and Webber since the domination started in 2010. I think 2011 is a telling year in showing that Vettel was much superior than Webber, who hardly got near the front row of the grid:

2010

SV::1 1 3 1 2 3 3 3 1 1 1 1 4 6 2 1 1 2 1
MW:6 2 1 2 1 1 1 2 2 2 4 2 1 4 5 2 2 3 5

2011

SV::1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 3 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1
MW:3 3 18 2 1 3 4 2 1 1 6 3 5 2 6 4 2 4 2

2012

SV::6 5 11 1 7 9 1 1 4 2 3 10 5 3 1 2 1 24 1 4
MW:5 4 6 3 11 1 4 19 2 8 11 12 11 7 2 1 2 2 3 3

2013
SV::1 1 9 2 3 3 1 3 2 2 2
MW:2 5 22 7 7 4 5 4 3 10 3

Before more Vettel fans reply,I actually like Vettel,but not much,I will really like him if I can see him prove himself a uncompetitve car that struggles to make Q1 on a consistent basis that nearly all the drivers have done before.

Like Hamilton?

Vettel is perhaps more qualified than most drivers to be in his seat, after his year-and-a-half at Toro Rosso where he consistantly out-performed seasoned drivers, including a 4-time Indy Champion and Vitantonio Liuzzi.

Before that, he was noticed by a lot of people for his test driving work with BMW Sauber. Being the fastest driver of the session in his first time in an F1 car. He did pretty well in all 7 test sessions he did with Sauber. Then, in his first ever F1 race at BMW Sauber. He qualified within 7 tenths of Heidfeld (probably not that impressive, but I think good for a rookie), and finished 8th, within 1 second of 6th place. Not bad at all.

I think it would be career suicide to leave Red Bull now. The best drivers also make the best decisions when it comes to their career.

It's interesting to note how the Alguersuari and Buemi did in 2010 with a Newey-designed car....

[mnmracer]

It's interesting to note how the Alguersuari and Buemi did in 2010 with a Newey-designed car....

And how many championships did Kimi win in his 5 years in a Newey car?
But of course, there will be some excuse why those years don't count.
Can't expect much else from a bunch of double standard-loving hypocrits.

[mnmracer]

But only a child, would say that his 4 titles mean anything other than the package of Seb/car was the best 4 times. Thats different to saying Seb was the best 4 times. therefore Seb might have 4 titles and alonso 2, lewis 1, MS 7, but only a halfwit would say MS is twice as good as Seb etc etc

As for saying seb is so much better than everyone esle, that with a slower car his brilliance allows him to win is not so much real horse poo, more like a wooden rocking horse poo

But who the f*** is saying that, other than the imaginary people you accuse of saying that?
What IS happening, is there being a mark over anything Vettel does, while every other day we are reminded about some combination of "Alonso" and "dog of a car".

In my view, "best car" is relative. As previously mentioned, the Red Bull has never been as fast as the main competition in a straight line until this Belgian GP. Tp make-up for that with superior cornering needs good driving, which is what Vettel did.

I take it you agree with this statement, as you do not seem to have disagreed with it

So now "good driving" equates to "Alonso challenged the championship in an inferior car".

Within two posts we're right back to double standards.
Alonso performs well: it's all Alonso, it was a dog of a car.
Vettel performs well: it's all Newey, because Vettel drives a Red Bull.

I will make this simple for you, with one (two-part) question:
If Alonso can win a race, is it really 'a dog of a car'?
And if Alonso proofs it is possible to win a race in 'a dog of a car', why is it "just the car" when Vettel does it?

You really don't see anything wrong with that pathetic, hypocritical double standard?

[CookinFlat6]

Are you being deliberately obtuse or are you just a bit emotional?

Someone said 'Sebs car is slower than the rest and he makes up for that by good driving in the corners'

And someone said ' Alonso made up for a bad car by good driving'

And this is the same?

Alonsos Ferrari was not a better package than the Red Bull
Sebs Red Bull was not a worse package because of one attribute, lower top speed

Sebs good driving(he drove very well) did not overcome the speed difference, the downforce in the corners did
Alonso good driving(he drove very well) helped overcome some of the bad attributes of his car

The Red Bull was a better car than the Ferrari

were is the hypocrisy thats causing hormones to rage here?

[LewEngBridewell]

Personally I like Seb.

Me too

[mnmracer]

Are you being deliberately obtuse or are you just a bit emotional?

I am just not very accepting of such despicable behavior. Become a decent man or deal with it.

Sebs good driving(he drove very well) did not overcome the speed difference, the downforce in the corners did
Alonso good driving(he drove very well) helped overcome some of the bad attributes of his car

How? What proof do you have that makes you feel comfortable in applying this double standard?

[CookinFlat6]

Are you being deliberately obtuse or are you just a bit emotional?

I am just not very accepting of such despicable behavior. Become a decent man or deal with it.

Sebs good driving(he drove very well) did not overcome the speed difference, the downforce in the corners did
Alonso good driving(he drove very well) helped overcome some of the bad attributes of his car

How? What proof do you have that makes you feel comfortable in applying this double standard?

Are you serious?
The straightline speed deficiency of the Red Bull has more than compensated for by the cars downforce in corners for years

The Ferrari has not been a better car overall, therefore Alonsos good driving has overcome more car deficiencies than Sebs has (because Seb doesnt have to as he has a better car) to challenge him till the last race a couple of times

Ok so what do you want to hear? The Red Bull has not overall been the best car for the last few years. The Red Bull is actually overall worse than the Ferrari and its Sebs brilliance that causes every single F1 insider to say so

[Zekenwolf]

In my view, to attain the status of a F1 driver, the individual has to be very good. To be chosen to work in a top team and retain that place, he has to be an excellent driver in the top league. Granted, Vettel, Alonso, Raikkonen and hamilton are all in that league.

To judge which one of them is the best is not easy and given the pattern of F1 racing, may well be impossible. Each of them has particular driving styles and talents which have to blend with the car that he is using. Sometimes it works and at other times it does not. The Vettel-RB9 combo was clearly the best for Spa, whereas it was not for Hungaroring where the Hamilton-Merc package worked better. Therefore, it is up to the teams and driver to bring the best possible package they can to every race. Since no one can get it right all the time, we have to concede that the one who des it more than the others is the winner - which is what happens.

It is not a simple thing to say that if driver X was in car Y he would win every race he finished. A driver with an excellent record might find that having moved to a car with its own excellent record it is not suiting his driving style. An example was when Prost and Mansell were together in Ferrari in 1990. Thos of you old enough to recall might remember that every press report predicted that Mansell' charging style would overwhelm Prost's more conservative approach. But that was not what happened.

[CookinFlat6]

And todays 'no s*** sherlock' prize goes to............