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[Zekenwolf]

The other thing to remember is that Alonso's Ferrari was driven extemely well in this race. After a poor qualification in P9, he cme through the field with relative ease and by Lap 15 had passed Hamilton, eventually finshing well ahead of him. But in the 29 laps following his reaching P2, he was unable to close down on Vettel, who won by nearly 17 seconds.

The RB9 is good, but not that good. It was just driven with brilliance.

[CookinFlat6]

The RB9 is good, but not that good. It was just driven with brilliance.

just good or not that good, I think the operative phrase here is best, it might not be that good but surely you are not saying that it hasnt been the best car over the last 4 years?

[Nin-Chin]

Mercedes Non-Executive Chairman Niki Lauda has tipped Sebastian Vettel to clinch his fourth World Championship title at the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, commenting that his domination of last weekend’s race at Spa-Francorchamps was the final hurdle he had to surmount.

With Red Bull having won at a track not particularly suited to the RB9 chassis, Lauda believes that Vettel is now out of sight, predicting that the squad will possess the best car on the season's up-coming higher-downforce circuits

“Vettel is no longer fighting anyone,” said the Austrian, who claimed the last of his three titles for McLaren in 1984. “I am committing myself to stating that he will be world champion in Abu Dhabi, the third last race [of 2013]. His lead is already big enough after Spa, where he dominated even though the Red Bull was not really suited to the track. His best circuits are still yet to come. Red Bull won't be the favourite at Monza but, on all other tracks, he has the best car.”

With eight races left to run, Vettel currently holds a 46 point lead over Fernando Alonso in the Drivers’ Championship.

[racechick]

Mercedes Non-Executive Chairman Niki Lauda has tipped Sebastian Vettel to clinch his fourth World Championship title at the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, commenting that his domination of last weekend’s race at Spa-Francorchamps was the final hurdle he had to surmount.

With Red Bull having won at a track not particularly suited to the RB9 chassis, Lauda believes that Vettel is now out of sight, predicting that the squad will possess the best car on the season's up-coming higher-downforce circuits

“Vettel is no longer fighting anyone,” said the Austrian, who claimed the last of his three titles for McLaren in 1984. “I am committing myself to stating that he will be world champion in Abu Dhabi, the third last race [of 2013]. His lead is already big enough after Spa, where he dominated even though the Red Bull was not really suited to the track. His best circuits are still yet to come. Red Bull won't be the favourite at Monza but, on all other tracks, he has the best car.”

With eight races left to run, Vettel currently holds a 46 point lead over Fernando Alonso in the Drivers’ Championship.

C'mon Niki, where's the fighting spirit? GET IN THERE!!!!

[Zekenwolf]

The RB9 is good, but not that good. It was just driven with brilliance.

just good or not that good, I think the operative phrase here is best, it might not be that good but surely you are not saying that it hasnt been the best car over the last 4 years?

In my view, "best car" is relative. As previously mentioned, the Red Bull has never been as fast as the main competition in a straight line until this Belgian GP. Tp make-up for that with superior cornering needs good driving, which is what Vettel did. In the past The Red Bull was not the best car by any stretch of imagination of faster tracks like Spa and Monza and the RB8 struggled badly for grip in wet conditions.

Yes, it is a great car but so are the Ferraris, Mercs and until this year the McLarens. And even a great car needs to be driven consistently under different conditions to win WDCs.

[racechick]

Red Bull was the best in the past. It was STREETS ahead in 2011, different ball game. The Mercs are only just coming good and the Mclaren whilst sometimes fast regularly shot itself in the foot.

[CookinFlat6]

The RB9 is good, but not that good. It was just driven with brilliance.

just good or not that good, I think the operative phrase here is best, it might not be that good but surely you are not saying that it hasnt been the best car over the last 4 years?

In my view, "best car" is relative. As previously mentioned, the Red Bull has never been as fast as the main competition in a straight line until this Belgian GP. Tp make-up for that with superior cornering needs good driving, which is what Vettel did. In the past The Red Bull was not the best car by any stretch of imagination of faster tracks like Spa and Monza and the RB8 struggled badly for grip in wet conditions.

Yes, it is a great car but so are the Ferraris, Mercs and until this year the McLarens. And even a great car needs to be driven consistently under different conditions to win WDCs.

To be the best car is to score the highest across several variables such as speed, downforce, cornering, braking, traction, good in the wet, balance, driveability and even reliability and team support and competency

The red bull car has scored the highest on aggregate for the last 4 years, some years by a stupendous amount some years by a smaller margin. let's not romanticse the facts by saying its top speed is lacking by 5% whilst forgetting that the downforce was better by 24%

[LRW]

The RB9 is good, but not that good. It was just driven with brilliance.

just good or not that good, I think the operative phrase here is best, it might not be that good but surely you are not saying that it hasnt been the best car over the last 4 years?

In my view, "best car" is relative. As previously mentioned, the Red Bull has never been as fast as the main competition in a straight line until this Belgian GP. Tp make-up for that with superior cornering needs good driving, which is what Vettel did. In the past The Red Bull was not the best car by any stretch of imagination of faster tracks like Spa and Monza and the RB8 struggled badly for grip in wet conditions.

Yes, it is a great car but so are the Ferraris, Mercs and until this year the McLarens. And even a great car needs to be driven consistently under different conditions to win WDCs.

Superior cornering is also helped greatly by decent downforce. Something the RB has in spades.

Credit where credit is due.

[Nin-Chin]

Let me use 2012 as an example,McLaren had the fastest car,thats true but it failed so many times that it wasn't a large advantage in the end.

In 2012
Red Bull:Best averall car
Mclaren:Fastest car

It's that simple.
2012 Alonso was able to challenge Vettel in a car that was 0.8 slower over 1 lap at most circuits,showing how good Alonso did and how Vettel underperformed to the car expectations.

This year the RB9 was expected to be streets ahead in term of performance after pre-season testing,but they ate their tyres faster than the competition,after Spain Red Bull were competitive at every circuit,Spain was a blip as was China,Red Bull has been the best overall car throughout the season.

FACT

[mnmracer]

Let me use 2012 as an example,McLaren had the fastest car,thats true but it failed so many times that it wasn't a large advantage in the end.

Sounds a lot like the 2010 RB6

2012 Alonso was able to challenge Vettel in a car that was 0.8 slower over 1 lap at most circuits

Luckily, a race takes at least 44 laps.

showing how good Alonso did and how Vettel underperformed to the car expectations.

Car expectations? Based on what?
Vettel was the best performing Red Bull driver in 16 out of 19 races.

FACT

[Zekenwolf]

It is laughable how Vettel haters come up with ridiculously lame and nonsensical excuses to "explain" his great performances being due to factors other than himself. Most of them don't even merit a response and are best ignored. They'll still be trying when Vettel finally retired from F1.

[Nin-Chin]

This is based on how good the Red Bull was throughout the season,Alonso was performing miracles in a car that handled like a dog for most of the season,and still only finished 4 points behind Vettel in an inferior car,Vettel should have won with a much larger margin than he did,and the mistakes he made in the season,Spain earning a drive through he speeding under yellows,Germany trying for an extra 3 points cost him 5 points,Monza going beyond the sprit of the rules just to keep Alonso behind,earning himself a drive through,before he retired,damaging his front wing at Abu Dhabi costing him time,good thing safety cars exist,Brazil,if he had left run,he and Senna wouldn't have tangled making his stroll to the title much easier than it was.

Without these small niggles Vettel would have won the title with a larger margin,eventually somebody will mention the toro rosso days,the toro rosso was decent in 2008,and that was also an Adrian Newey designed car.

His titles make others look worse than they are,Vettel with 3 titles at 26(soon to be 4),Alonso with 2 at 32,Hamilton with 1 at 28.

Mind you the McLaren was only fastest with 1 driver,the RB6 was extremly competitive that even Webber could qualify 2nd to Vettel on most circuits,showing its advantage with a average-ish driver.

Vettel's titles don't always necessarily show his talent,Alonso is a great title who hasn't had the greatest of cars in the last few years,same with Hamilton,Vettel has had all of the success helped by Adrian Newey,he would be respected more if he drove a car that wasn't designed by Newey.

Schumacher showed his talent in alot of different vehicles,the Ferrari in 1996 and 1997 fighting for the title in a car that was as good as the Williams,this is why Schumi was respected as a driver.As was Senna after what he did in a Toleman and his JPS Lotus.

Before more Vettel fans reply,I actually like Vettel,but not much,I will really like him if I can see him prove himself a uncompetitve car that struggles to make Q1 on a consistent basis that nearly all the drivers have done before.

Oh apparently I'm making excuses,no no,I'm sharing my opinion

[CookinFlat6]

It is laughable how Vettel haters come up with ridiculously lame and nonsensical excuses to "explain" his great performances being due to factors other than himself. Most of them don't even merit a response and are best ignored. They'll still be trying when Vettel finally retired from F1.

Saying that the Red Bull is slower on straights and that proves Seb is driving fantastically around the bends to make up for it is ridiculous, and not so much lame as in legless.
Other factors other than himself? So Seb runs around the track on foot and we just imagine he has a car?
Explain his great performances? No one needs to do that, everyone can see that he is one of the best drivers.
So lets assume that when Lewis won in Hungary for example that his car was equal to Sebs, then why didnt Seb beat him by mile anyway? Surely that would prove he was clearly the best. Why didnt Seb drive fantastically round the bends and around Button to overcome the speed disadvantage like you said he has been doing?
Oh I know you have no answer as the question doesnt merit a response and should be ignored

Wheres andrew anyway?

[mnmracer]

It is exactly this hypocritical pathetic double standard why some responses are not merited. Unfortunately, you should not even for one second get the feeling that your despicable behavior is acceptable either.

So Seb runs around the track on foot and we just imagine he has a car?

I could ask the same about Alonso and Hamilton, but of course then there is some excuse why it doesn't matter.
If we are to believe you guys, it are Fernando and Lewis that run around on track, while Vettel has his supercar. Hypocritical bullpoo.

When Alonso wins in Valencia with safety cars, bad pit stops and two mechanical faillures, he is the best driver ever.
When Vettel fights his way from the back in Abu Dhabi, twice, he's just lucky with a race set-up and safety cars.

When Alonso wins in China or Spain by running away in the front from lap 5 on, he is amazing.
When Vettel does the same, "OMG, Adrian Newey!"

When Alonso makes the odd mistake, "he is struggling with that Ferrari".
When Vettel makes the odd mistake, "look how bad he is!".

Do you never feel ashamed for such a despicable double standard?
It is disgusting. It is pathetic. It is despicable. It is lowly. It is classless. It is fundamentally bad form.

[Hammer278]

I don't think anyone's disputing that Vettel is a Top 3 driver in F1.

What people are disputing is his 'brilliance' in driving the best car away from others simply because of his 'brilliance' and not the car.

Many Vettel fans actually think he is worth his WDCs relative to Alonso and Hamilton, when the simply answer in this sport is the machinery which plays a massive massive part and it is indeed very difficult to say who's the best driver out of these 3.

Which is why we have our own perceptions, preferred style, and find our favourite points in each of these 3 + Kimi. What I think is annoying at this stage is how Vettel is hailed as simply the best....akin to the time of the famous quote during Ferrari's glory days "Schumacher could win in a Minardi". Well well, we saw how that turned out when Renault gave a worthwhile fight from 2005 onwards.