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[sagi58]

I think if it had rained today the Mercs might have had a bit more to say.

Wrong thread.

A bit, but it followed on from the suggestion that Nando would have won if it rained.....because I think the Mercs would have stopped him if it rained.

Much as I wish I didn't, I have to agree with you that it may not have been all that easy/guaranteed!!
Having said that, your comment was relative and I'm glad you made it (because I wouldn't have!! )!!

[sagi58]

Lewis and Kimi did their early careers in lesser teams

Kimi yes, Lewis no; that's an absurd thing to say.

Relatively speaking my friend

Kimis early career built his credibility allowing better teams to want him, Lewis also, unless you want to argue that Lewis is not now at a better team?
IMHO McLaren is a lesser team to Mercedes in terms of resources, money, staff and prospects
Therefore Lewis like Kimi and Alonso and MS parlayed their earlier careers into situations where they got the best long term prospects playing their tune. MS won 5 with Ferrari, Alonso stumbled at McLaren (who were coming to the end of being top prospect for that era) and had a second go at Ferrari, again stumbling a little. Kimi could have had a string of WDCs at McLaren when they were a hot prospect. Sebs move from lesser team to top prospect was ofcourse a bit more straight forward, but same deal

Lewis is now in the driving seat of arguably the best prospect for the new era, therefore in 3 years or so is when he should be compared to those mentioned above. whereas Kimi and alonso may have shot their respective bolts as far as the new era

Correct me if I'm wrong; but, wasn't McLaren one of the top teams when Hamilton started in F1?
Wasn't there a lot of talk that Hamilton was VERY lucky to have gotten a seat with such a top team
to debut in? That he was VERY lucky to have them sponsor his development from a tender age?
Wasn't there an implosion in that top team that caused them to lose both titles? How that possibly
translates into a "lesser" team, I'm not entirely sure!!

Also, since Mercedes didn't have a team on the field, you can hardly compare them today with the
team McLaren was during Hamilton's first year!!

[sagi58]

I'll keep it brief because I don't want to take this off topic and will therefore only reply once, but in my opinion a team which wins a WDC with Lewis is not a lesser team, he didn't do it in a Caterham or Torro Rosso. A team that wins races consistently which McLaren did prior to this year (Which is how McLaren will continue forever apparently) is not a "Lesser Team".

Relatively speaking, right now Lotus is relatively lesser than RBR, but who has had success over a longer period?

Lewis does everything bigger and better than everyone else

He has been at 2 F1 teams, one is lesser and one is greater (prospect wise going forward)
Just like MS won with Benetton and moved on to a team with no recent wins yet still a step up as far as long term prospects and shear resources and might.

For most drivers McLaren would be the pinnacle of their ambition, yes they win races each year, however there is another level above McLaren for the exceptional drivers and Merc are it. So my argument stands that Lewis has traded up from a lesser team

Let me get this straight... you're comparing the past, which is fact with the future, which is speculation?

[sagi58]

Alonso hasn't given up... I know things look glum, at the moment;
but, he reminds me of Stallone in Rocky: !!

[CookinFlat6]

Let me get this straight... you're comparing the past, which is fact with the future, which is speculation?

I am extrapolating a set of highly correlated stats and facts, which is a very basic speculation

[spankyham]

The cunundrum is that Ferrari is unwilling to say the issue is with development of their car and is unable to say the issue is with Alonso's driving.

I don't think there's much of a conundrum at SF. I'd guess they'd say they, along with Lotus made the biggest improvements based on the rule changes for 2013. Bearing in mind that with so little changing each year the scope to made any advances are small. Put in perspective, the team managed to lift themselves into contention on a level footing with RB. The big change was clearly always going to be the new tires, and as everyone knows, SF and Lotus did a great job designing for them.

I agree that when safety is in question, there has to be adjustments. The adjustment could have been forced on to the teams, ie teams would have to adjust their cars to manage the tires, that would have been a great result for SF and Lotus. The other alternative was to change the rules mid-season and revert to last years tires - favoring the teams running such cars. To their credit, SF have "bitten the bullet" and worked their rectums off to bring the car back into contention. They are close, but not yet close enough to challenge RB. For the sake of the season, I hope they can make a similar jump forward in performance for Monza

...so maybe it's all Massa's fault.

I'm a huge Massa fan, but even I'd have to admit that he hasn't helped the team's cause much.

[sagi58]

Let me get this straight... you're comparing the past, which is fact with the future, which is speculation?

I am extrapolating a set of highly correlated stats and facts, which is a very basic speculation

Mild or wild, it's still speculating... can't fairly compare that with "historical" facts!!

[What's Burning?]

Had the Silverstone fiasco not happened would we be still using the original tire specifications wherein teams learned to flip them and run them sub pressure specs to increase their life? Ever Mercedes had caught on by then so I believe that even the Scuderia wouldn't have been able to stand the tide of sentiment about changing the tire specs after that point. Especially since Massa was one of the victims.

[sagi58]

Had the Silverstone fiasco not happened would we be still using the original tire specifications wherein teams learned to flip them and run them sub pressure specs to increase their life? Ever Mercedes had caught on by then so I believe that even the Scuderia wouldn't have been able to stand the tide of sentiment about changing the tire specs after that point. Especially since Massa was one of the victims.

Maybe it's a bit naïve of me to say this; but, I still believe we don't have all the facts about how the tires "suddenly" became a safety issue, especially since it was so close on the heels of Red Bull complaining about the tires.

[spankyham]

Had the Silverstone fiasco not happened would we be still using the original tire specifications wherein teams learned to flip them and run them sub pressure specs to increase their life? Ever Mercedes had caught on by then so I believe that even the Scuderia wouldn't have been able to stand the tide of sentiment about changing the tire specs after that point. Especially since Massa was one of the victims.

Clearly the Ferrari and Lotus were much better managing the original tire spec

Maybe it's a bit naïve of me to say this; but, I still believe we don't have all the facts about how the tires "suddenly" became a safety issue, especially since it was so close on the heels of Red Bull complaining about the tires.

For sure we don't know the whole story here .... situation normal really

[racechick]

Well I think they became a safety issue when 6 or 7 exploded at Silverstone

[CookinFlat6]

Let me get this straight... you're comparing the past, which is fact with the future, which is speculation?

I am extrapolating a set of highly correlated stats and facts, which is a very basic speculation

Mild or wild, it's still speculating... can't fairly compare that with "historical" facts!!

sagi58, Lewis started off with one team and is now at another just like many a driver before him. First F1 team = apprenticeship, learning the ropes, you are a junior. Next F1 team = better for your career prospects, earned through your apprenticeship.
My question to you is this (yes or no will suffice);

Has Lewis traded down in terms of career prospects?

[sagi58]

Let me get this straight... you're comparing the past, which is fact with the future, which is speculation?

I am extrapolating a set of highly correlated stats and facts, which is a very basic speculation

Mild or wild, it's still speculating... can't fairly compare that with "historical" facts!!

sagi58, Lewis started off with one team and is now at another just like many a driver before him. First F1 team = apprenticeship, learning the ropes, you are a junior. Next F1 team = better for your career prospects, earned through your apprenticeship.
My question to you is this (yes or no will suffice);

Has Lewis traded down in terms of career prospects?

The jury is still out!

[CookinFlat6]

So you still not sure if Lewis, compared to previous top drivers has traded down in his career? Lewis alone has not been able to move from 1 team to another with better prospects for his career?

The only driver I can think of is maybe Hulk, but even he moved because he thought he was trading up or Damon but he was already rather old, then J Villeneuve, but again he thought he was trading up

So F1 is full of drivers who start up in one team, use it as a stepping stone, then trade up to a better package, but we are not sure if Lewis has done the same?

[sagi58]

So you still not sure if Lewis, uniquely amongst all previous top drivers has traded down in his career? Lewis alone has not been able to move from 1 team to another with better prospects for his career?

The only driver I can think of is maybe Hulk, but even he moved because he thought he was trading up

So F1 is full of drivers who start up in one team, then trade up to a better package, but we are not sure if Lewis has done the same?

Granted, Mercedes is doing better at the moment than McLaren is.
Granted, Hamilton seems happier with them than he was at McLaren.
However, since so many measure success in F1 by titles, it's early yet!