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[CookinFlat6]

Its Alonso I feel sorry for the most. Lewis has set himself up properly for the next era. Seb exploited the last era. Alonso messed up his era by what happened at Mclaren. Kimis era was messed up by Mclaren
From next year if there is a new era someone could exploit it and win a few WDCs. I am not sure Alonso has set himself up for it as well as Lewis has.
If RBR or Ferarri beat Merc in the new era, then Lewis messed up by not planning for the long term like MS did and picking the right seat.
Alonso, Lewis and Kimi did their early careers in lesser teams, then commanded a drive at what they deemed to be the best seat going forward. McLaren/Ferrari have not panned out for Kimi or Alonso. Sebs RBR worked out, and Lewis is just about to start his 'post lesser team' career that should deliver success as he enters his prime

[What's Burning?]

I feel sorry for both Alonso and even more Lewis . Lewis one , Alonso two and Vettel more than likely four. That does not reflect the relative talents of those three drivers, but that's the way the cookie crumbles in F1.

All good things come to an end, and 2014 looks to be the beginning of a new era. I feel more for Ferrari as they really had a shot this year and it slipped their grasp early on. Alonso is a fantastic driver but he can't make up the deficit Ferrari gave him to work with.

I use Massa as the barometer to the F138's true performance.

[spankyham]

I feel sorry for both Alonso and even more Lewis . Lewis one , Alonso two and Vettel more than likely four. That does not reflect the relative talents of those three drivers, but that's the way the cookie crumbles in F1.

All good things come to an end, and 2014 looks to be the beginning of a new era. I feel more for Ferrari as they really had a shot this year and it slipped their grasp early on. Alonso is a fantastic driver but he can't make up the deficit Ferrari gave him to work with.

I use Massa as the barometer to the F138's true performance.

If Felipe is the yardstick then Ferrari definitely never had a shot this year




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[What's Burning?]

I should have been more clear. If your number two driver can come in the top five or six consistently, then the team is giving their number one driver a fair shot at a win and a great shot at a podium consistently.

[spankyham]

I should have been more clear. If your number two driver can come in the top five or six consistently, then the team is giving their number one driver a fair shot at a win and a great shot at a podium consistently.

Fair comment then. The thing that changed Ferrari (and Lotus) from genuine contenders to outside chances - that need luck - was the midseason change to the rules, ie tires

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[1Lemon]

Lewis and Kimi did their early careers in lesser teams

Kimi yes, Lewis no; that's an absurd thing to say.

I'm not a huge Alonso fan, but I do think he looks frustrated with Ferrari, and understandably so; sometimes what a team needs to get back up the front is a kick up the arse by a strong driver, and a public one at that. Only Alonso tried this and was then immediately kicked down, it seems there is no direction at Ferrari, their all running around shouting "WE'RE LOSING THE DEVELOPMENT BATTLE" but not really doing too much about it. They need Alonso to step in and kick them all into place, but he's not being allowed to do so.

[What's Burning?]

The cunundrum is that Ferrari is unwilling to say the issue is with development of their car and is unable to say the issue is with Alonso's driving.

...so maybe it's all Massa's fault.

[CookinFlat6]

Lewis and Kimi did their early careers in lesser teams

Kimi yes, Lewis no; that's an absurd thing to say.

Relatively speaking my friend

Kimis early career built his credibility allowing better teams to want him, Lewis also, unless you want to argue that Lewis is not now at a better team?
IMHO McLaren is a lesser team to Mercedes in terms of resources, money, staff and prospects
Therefore Lewis like Kimi and Alonso and MS parlayed their earlier careers into situations where they got the best long term prospects playing their tune. MS won 5 with Ferrari, Alonso stumbled at McLaren (who were coming to the end of being top prospect for that era) and had a second go at Ferrari, again stumbling a little. Kimi could have had a string of WDCs at McLaren when they were a hot prospect. Sebs move from lesser team to top prospect was ofcourse a bit more straight forward, but same deal

Lewis is now in the driving seat of arguably the best prospect for the new era, therefore in 3 years or so is when he should be compared to those mentioned above. whereas Kimi and alonso may have shot their respective bolts as far as the new era

[1Lemon]

Lewis and Kimi did their early careers in lesser teams

Kimi yes, Lewis no; that's an absurd thing to say.

Relatively speaking my friend

Kimis early career built his credibility allowing better teams to want him, Lewis also, unless you want to argue that Lewis is not now at a better team?
IMHO McLaren is a lesser team to Mercedes in terms of resources, money, staff and prospects
Therefore Lewis like Kimi and Alonso and MS parlayed their earlier careers into situations where they got the best long term prospects playing their tune. MS won 5 with Ferrari, Alonso stumbled at McLaren (who were coming to the end of being top prospect for that era) and had a second go at Ferrari, again stumbling a little. Kimi could have had a string of WDCs at McLaren when they were a hot prospect. Sebs move from lesser team to top prospect was ofcourse a bit more straight forward, but same deal

Lewis is now in the driving seat of arguably the best prospect for the new era, therefore in 3 years or so is when he should be compared to those mentioned above. whereas Kimi and alonso may have shot their respective bolts as far as the new era

I'll keep it brief because I don't want to take this off topic and will therefore only reply once, but in my opinion a team which wins a WDC with Lewis is not a lesser team, he didn't do it in a Caterham or Torro Rosso. A team that wins races consistently which McLaren did prior to this year (Which is how McLaren will continue forever apparently) is not a "Lesser Team".

[CookinFlat6]

I'm not a huge Alonso fan, but I do think he looks frustrated with Ferrari, and understandably so; sometimes what a team needs to get back up the front is a kick up the arse by a strong driver, and a public one at that. Only Alonso tried this and was then immediately kicked down, it seems there is no direction at Ferrari, their all running around shouting "WE'RE LOSING THE DEVELOPMENT BATTLE" but not really doing too much about it. They need Alonso to step in and kick them all into place, but he's not being allowed to do so.

You may be referring to what has been called (maybe unfairly) the spaghetti culture inherent in Ferraris management since Enzos demise. A culture of clinging on to tradition and Ferraris historical place with Montezemolo running around scaring and sacking people.

Remember the rut the team were in before the Todt/Brawn/MS recovery. Brawn and Todt kept the Fiat Ferrari out of the team and sorted the whole place out. Montezemolo hardly went to races. And what happened after that era? Someone had the bright idea to hire only Italians and make it a real Ferrari nostalgia fest. A couple of seasons after knee jerk, lets get some foreigners back, sack Costa, get Fry etc etc

Alonso was brought in to lead the team and drive the developement (because apparently kimi couldnt/wouldnt) and yes they have been unlucky a couple of years not winning, but now it could be knee jerk time again. Bash Alonso for criticising (driving development of) the car. Hire more engineers, get the retired designer from the old days back in charge of the new 2014 project with its serious technology and recovery systems

Could get interesting

[1Lemon]

I think there was some misscommunication here, I'm supporting Alonso for bashing the car and the team, someone needs to motivate the management, and that might just be what is needed. I think the whole Ferrari culture of "Ferrari is bigger than all individuals" is hurting them because no one want's to do anything risky, which is hurting them.

[CookinFlat6]

I'll keep it brief because I don't want to take this off topic and will therefore only reply once, but in my opinion a team which wins a WDC with Lewis is not a lesser team, he didn't do it in a Caterham or Torro Rosso. A team that wins races consistently which McLaren did prior to this year (Which is how McLaren will continue forever apparently) is not a "Lesser Team".

Relatively speaking, right now Lotus is relatively lesser than RBR, but who has had success over a longer period?

Lewis does everything bigger and better than everyone else

He has been at 2 F1 teams, one is lesser and one is greater (prospect wise going forward)
Just like MS won with Benetton and moved on to a team with no recent wins yet still a step up as far as long term prospects and shear resources and might.

For most drivers McLaren would be the pinnacle of their ambition, yes they win races each year, however there is another level above McLaren for the exceptional drivers and Merc are it. So my argument stands that Lewis has traded up from a lesser team

[What's Burning?]

Come now cookin, even for you that's a stretch. Your argument only works because its 2013 not 2012.

[ptiberio]

Check out this video....if anyone really thinks that Alonzo is not the best driver getting the most out of a "B" car
the they is smokin' the bong

http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2013/08 ... d-off.html

[CookinFlat6]

It is a stretch but very interesting when you look at the numbers. Lewis has won a race every year of his career, he has been at 2 teams, so he has either traded up or down as far as future prospects of grabbing a string of WDCs, its not here yet, maybe next year
Ofcourse it might not work out, like Alonso at Ferrari so far, but it seems Alonso was very unlucky, like Kimi at Mclaren earlier.

Lewis paid his dues at one level of potential and has now become more effective, MS won things at Beneton, even the WDc yet history has him as trading up to Ferrari. Money is not the metric here, although you would expect a team building a winning formula to pay highly for the best drivers, the metric is potential

Alonso and Ferrari should have won a few things, Alonso might be exasperated, he cant really leave and Ferrari might lag for a while but not for long