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[CookinFlat6]

Expected to improve and outdevelop the others this year in a similar fashion to 2009 or even to Ferraris 2012, yet they seem to be leaving it late and a yet to show clear signs of catching up.

Is this just a blip before they start winning back to back titles again? or is there a problem somewhere that must be fixed first?

Lets have a civil discussion about the facts, statements and news as they continue to roll out of Woking.

To set a light hearted theme for the discussion heres some music;

[youtube]M1HwVmY28Pk[/youtube]

[What's Burning?]

I think there's a chance for both Hamilton and Mclaren to go winless in 2013. But I think there is an unfair focus on Mclaren as many teams have gone down a bad road before making a full recovery. Ferrari and Williams can both attest to that. How far will Mclaren's slide go before they're able to right the ship is anyone's guess but my feeling given the team personnel and the financial state of things at the moment is that they'll slide a bit further south before they rebound.

I do think that McLaren's biggest challenge is going to be negotiating a profitable main sponsor deal to replace Vodaphone given their lack of success in 2013. Just baaaad timing.

[Jabberwocky]

Look how long Ferrari was in the doldrums. It was a long time between Jody and Micheal's championships.

Williams seem to be on that cycle.

Mclaren, lets hope they follow the "Enstone" system of car building

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[1Lemon]

We almost made it one post...


Anyway, yes I don't think McLaren are going to win this year, I'd put everything into next year and start looking at my design team's structure. Then start publicising that we are only looking at next year, and we will be greatly faster with out new partnersbacking (They have confirmed a new main sponsor to replace Vodafone a few months back but never said who it was). Then if that doesn't help for next year I'd seriously sit down, look at the grid and the future stars, and bring in two new drivers, a new fresh start for Honda, replace the engine, drivers, heads of design areas and a new design mantre for the car; with some risky innovations thrown in.

Bottom line is 1) start testing next years car on this years car and 2) make me team principle.

[Jabberwocky]

I think there's a chance for both Hamilton and Mclaren to go winless in 2013. But I think there is an unfair focus on Mclaren as many teams have gone down a bad road before making a full recovery. Ferrari and Williams can both attest to that. How far will Mclaren's slide go before they're able to right the ship is anyone's guess but my feeling given the team personnel and the financial state of things at the moment is that they'll slide a bit further south before they rebound.

I do think that McLaren's biggest challenge is going to be negotiating a profitable main sponsor deal to replace Vodaphone given their lack of success in 2013. Just baaaad timing.

Are we seeing the fall out still of the 100 million fine? The fat of the company might of absorbed it to start with but now the cash flow might have problems? I personally do not feel the team has been right since, not sure if that is financial, change of leadership, or shock that Ron has gone.

Maybe this years car because of its suspension is the pain that other teams will endure next year.

I am not particularly a Mclaren fan but I do not like to see any of the long term teams from leaving or not fighting at the front.

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[1Lemon]

There has been speculation about a lot of companies but the one that seems more logical than others is British censored giant GlaxoSmithKline. For a start McLaren has a major alliance with GSK which includes the creation of a McLaren-GSK Centre for Applied Performance, which is currently being developed in a new state-of-the-art facility in Woking. The second is that the GSK chairman is Chris Gent, the man who took Vodafone into F1 in 2002, and the third is that GSK has declared its strategy to be to move away from some of its traditional products and markets and expand with consumer products in the emerging economies.

That's from a blog post.

GlaxoSmithKline Mclaren Honda

Nice.....

[What's Burning?]

If only Preparation H was a sponsor.

[darwin dali]

If only Preparation H was a sponsor.

A bit harsh

[darwin dali]

Look how long Ferrari was in the doldrums. It was a long time between Jody and Micheal's championships.

Williams seem to be on that cycle.

Mclaren, lets hope they follow the "Enstone" system of car building

Sent from Turing Colossus using Tapatalk 2

Well, Ferrari had FIAT money, so they recovered. Williams have nothing and they're still down.
McLaren lost Mercedes, so they're more like Williams from that point of view.

[1Lemon]

Look how long Ferrari was in the doldrums. It was a long time between Jody and Micheal's championships.

Williams seem to be on that cycle.

Mclaren, lets hope they follow the "Enstone" system of car building

Sent from Turing Colossus using Tapatalk 2

Well, Ferrari had FIAT money, so they recovered. Williams have nothing and they're still down.
McLaren lost Mercedes, so they're more like Williams from that point of view.

Williams are one of if not the most profitable team in F1 right now. They have a now very profitable sub-business.

McLaren have a super car company that are not making "Super cars" but "performance" cars but selling them for super car prices so no ones buying them. Financially if they had to stand on their own two feet, Williams are in a better position. Obviously I'm ignoring sponsors, as Williams doesn't have a title sponsor, nor have they for a long time.

Edit: Technically Williams are not the most profitable team as to gauge a team officially you just look at sponsorships and cash rewards/bonuses for finishing well in races, however IIRC from articles, all the profits that are made by the Williams dubai centre and their hybrid kers unit, after going to shareholders, goes to the Grand Prix team. I'm sure it's similar at McLaren and Ferrari though.

[What's Burning?]

selling sugar water is apparently more than twice as profitable as selling supercars.

Red Bull
Revenue Increase €4.253 billion (2011)

Ferrari
Revenue Increase € 2.2 billion (2011)

The entirety of Williams is valued at under 300 million euros, how do you come up with the numbers that they're the most profitable F1 team?

[Jabberwocky]

I would imagine that Mclaren Electronic Systems are profitable as well

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[1Lemon]

selling sugar water is apparently more than twice as profitable as selling supercars.

Red Bull
Revenue Increase €4.253 billion (2011)

Ferrari
Revenue Increase € 2.2 billion (2011)

The entirety of Williams is valued at under 300 million euros, how do you come up with the numbers that they're the most profitable F1 team?

I'm saying that in terms of the actual F1 companies, I'm sure RBR don't make 4 billion euros a year, and I'm also sure that all the dosh they make doesn't all go into their F1 car, Williams have these ventures to fund their F1 team, and still make a hefty profit, so in terms of profitability that is making it to an F1 team, Williams are one of the heighest. Again I remember reading this a few months back so it may be a little hazy.

[CookinFlat6]

A lot of the problems for any team is ultimately lack of money, or lack of enough money to out spend or keep up. McLarens present situation is traceable to Ron rejecting Mercs attempt to buy a controlling share. The decision was made when it seemed that the roadcar division could follow the Ferrari early model of selling enough cars to finance the team. With the car company effectively giving the team a couple hundred million a year as its advertising spend.

No need for sponsors etc. However the downturn in the economy apart, the car company is struggling and is way behind on sales targets and milestones to profitability. Ron has had to leverage funds from investors and the interest bills alone are silly. He has also had to give the original Bharaini investors most of the car company and more shares in McLaren group in this quest to remain independent.

We are seeing the results of that now, he is relegated to minority shareholder with no executive role in either company and no control of boardroom decisions. Whitmarsh who is also a boardmember obviously still has favour from the real owners - the Bharainis who are probably swayed by remaining a factor in British enginering and job creation and involvement within the right side of the DTI and therefore the establishment. This will all help when those pesky citizens start yelling about human rights and revolution again.

The McLaren group and its diversified businesses turnover around 200mill, and are profitable to the tune of single, low double figures or so, but the F1 team like most others runs at a deficit and has to be net inflow funded each season. In the past it was Merc, now its the Bharainis who are also watching the car business swallow their second investment.

So is there appetite to change things at the top? Maybe not as much as if the owners were real F1 folk, like Ron who was rumored to have attempted a military coup to oust Whitmarsh, failing because his old buddy from Tag stayed loyal to the board (think smirking Whitmarsh) and Bharainis

To compare them to Williams a while ago would have been to bring down a world of ridicule and sarcasm and bullying, however Williams (apart from this year results) are where McLaren are aiming for as Williams now turn a profit and have growth prospects from the structuring and investments they have done since flotation. And the stock market is an easy place to get a lot more money once you have a good story behind you and a support price has been tested for your stock.

So I can see things getting worse before they get better in the same way it did for Williams, hopefully nowhere as long. Without Ron they dont have a rainmaker who can get more from less. IMHO guys like Lopez, Pat Symonds John booth will wipe the floor with Whitmarsh, maybe even Claire Williams

[What's Burning?]

selling sugar water is apparently more than twice as profitable as selling supercars.

Red Bull
Revenue Increase €4.253 billion (2011)

Ferrari
Revenue Increase € 2.2 billion (2011)

The entirety of Williams is valued at under 300 million euros, how do you come up with the numbers that they're the most profitable F1 team?

I'm saying that in terms of the actual F1 companies, I'm sure RBR don't make 4 billion euros a year, and I'm also sure that all the dosh they make doesn't all go into their F1 car, Williams have these ventures to fund their F1 team, and still make a hefty profit, so in terms of profitability that is making it to an F1 team, Williams are one of the heighest. Again I remember reading this a few months back so it may be a little hazy.

I understand but you can't have it both ways, you're saying that Williams makes the most profit of any F1 team but their profit is coming primarily from components Williams are making for the private sector. So if you take that money into account for Williams, then you have to take that into account for RBR. It's even more in depth than that, as a company that can both promote itself and the F1 team gets to pay itself if you will. Red Bull using its advertising money to sponsor the F1 team, so money moving from the right side pocket, to the left side pocket. Mercedes, Ferrari and McLaren to a lesser degree benefit in the same way.

If you were to go strictly on profitable F1 teams, then that would be RBR and Ferrari. Red Bull because they've been winning championships and that is the number one source of revenue for the teams. Ferrari have their "special" deal that cuts them in on a bigger slice of the pier because they're Ferrari.

Most teams don't make money from their sponsors whatsoever, they're actually lucky if they make enough from the sponsors to break even on costs. Keep the lights on and pay their employees enough so they're not looking to jump ship and put enough into R&D to stay competitive and hopefully move up the pecking order. The profits come from the team gear chotchkies they sell and any winnings and TV time profit shares.