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One of the models for the universe and it's expansion I find easiest to grasp is the hypersphere.
Imagine in the 3D world we percieve, there's a round balloon with an infinitely thin skin, that skin can be thought of as a 2D surface curving through 3 dimensions and both those dimensions are tangential to the surface of the balloon. Now imagine a 2D entity living in that 2D surface, it has no concept of up or down or of anything that exists inside or outside of the balloon, as the balloon expands the 2D surface expands and all the entities on that surface get further away from each other.
In the case of the hypersphere things get a little more difficult to imagine, the surface is 3 dimensional curving through 4 or more dimensions and each of those 3 dimensions is tangential to the surface of the hypersphere. We can move any direction through those 3 dimensions but we can never move off that infinitely thin surface of the hypersphere and no matter what direction we look we can't look away from or towards the centre of the hypersphere either, we can only travel/look along a tangent to the surface.
I have no idea if that makes any sense to anyone else. It is probably not the most popular model but I think it can go some way to giving the idea of trying to imagine more than the 3D world we percieve.
Nope. But I have had a bottle of Cab Sav.diagrams would REALLY help
Just think of a 2D entity living on the 2D surface of an expanding balloon with no concept of up or down or height, all the entity knows of and can ever know of is what's on that 2D surface of the balloon with every point on that surface getting further away from every other point as it expands. This model is like that but it's a 3d surface of a hypersphere curving through 4 dimensions.
There are other models with space curving in other ways or is flat which give rise to different properties as to whether space is finite or not but no one really knows.
Yeah, ive still had a bottle of red. I'm with you on the 2d entity on a 2d balloon. But then my brain gives up. I WILL revisit this tomorrow and work it out.
Cheers for your input.
I'm glad I haven't been COMPLETELY been laughed off the forum.....
This is your typical 3-4 guys hanging out, enjoying an awesome high on weed convo....its no laughing matter.
But I do get the darkness and the sadness you feel .On the properties of the universe, what lies outside and what caused it's existance no one knows and if it can be described some day it'll probably be pretty incomprehensible outside the maths of it. Even the universe around us isn't really what we percieve and there are some pretty strange things closer to home.
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LRW, I get similar weird thoughts to you .........
I love epic questions like this.
I spent many a childhood moment,........
LRW, I get similar weird thoughts to you .........I love epic questions like this.
I spent many a childhood moment,........
Yay. I'm not the only fruit cake on the forum. Woop.
I spent many a childhood moment, when I was on my own, thinking.... the universe and whole of space is beyond the sky. But what's beyond the universe? Nothing? It must surely go on forever?
But how can it go on forever? It must come to an end?
But what's beyond the end?
My golly, that question still f!cks me up to this day...
LRW, I get similar weird thoughts to you but not quite the same. More than thoughts really because they're not just in my head, like thoughts, but are more a feeling that goes through me. And if I try to grasp it and think about it, it disappears. It's a bit scary and depressing when it comes.
Best way describe it is I get a sudden sense of what is everything about? Why am In this car driving along here? Why such a complex world of issues and problems and decisions when we just die? But it's powerful because its not just a thought....because if I think it, then it becomes a logical consideration and looses its power. When this thing comes its like , almost like looking at something on a completely different level to how you've viewed things before. It's a feeling that flutters around at the edge but won't let me get hold of it.
And like you said, nothing whatsoever to do with a search for religion.
Well LRW, I've probably topped you for wappy thoughts this evening
It's amazing isn't it? Boggles the mind...
I subscribe to the view that you're born with nothing and you die with nothing so just try and enjoy the bit in the middle. LRW, I get similar weird thoughts to you but not quite the same. More than thoughts really because they're not just in my head, like thoughts, but are more a feeling that goes through me. And if I try to grasp it and think about it, it disappears. It's a bit scary and depressing when it comes.
Best way describe it is I get a sudden sense of what is everything about? Why am In this car driving along here? Why such a complex world of issues and problems and decisions when we just die? But it's powerful because its not just a thought....because if I think it, then it becomes a logical consideration and looses its power. When this thing comes its like , almost like looking at something on a completely different level to how you've viewed things before. It's a feeling that flutters around at the edge but won't let me get hold of it.
And like you said, nothing whatsoever to do with a search for religion.
Well LRW, I've probably topped you for wappy thoughts this evening
We are all a small part of one thing called life, it started with the first self replicating molecule a few billion years ago. Each individual lives and dies and may appear insignificant on it's own but each plays it's part in the continuation of the whole of life.
The answer to it all is 42.I spent many a childhood moment, when I was on my own, thinking.... the universe and whole of space is beyond the sky. But what's beyond the universe? Nothing? It must surely go on forever?
But how can it go on forever? It must come to an end?
But what's beyond the end?
My golly, that question still f!cks me up to this day...
The Universe is infinite and without an end and therefore there is nothing beyond the end 'cos there isn't one is my understanding. You'd never get to its farthest reaches without travelling at several times the speed of light. But if the Universe is infinite it will not have an end and therefore there will be nothing beyond the end as the end does not exist. That's my understsanding at least.
Now the really interesting things are Black Holes - where do they go? Parrallel Universes?
I've wondered the same question many times too.
Here's my personal opinion. It does have a religious element to it, but basically there are two types of people in the world Those who are physically minded and those who are spiritually minded. A spiritual person will always talk about this subject in a way different to a physically minded person, so it's impossible for me to see things physically as per the majority of this forum.
I have also provided a counter-argument posed by evolutionists which I've posted at the end if you want to skip all the religious stuff.
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Many people say that you only live for 80 years or so. So live it up, because it all goes to poo anyway.
Others hold onto their faith that there is somehow more than just this life.
But even if you believe in a God who created everything, there is still the question that exists: What was there before God created everything?
Perhaps the biggest question is, does time itself have a beginning?
What I conclude is that man only has a sense of time because we have a beginning. Everything had a beginning, whether you believe in evolution or creation we believe that everything had a beginning. The only exception that I have to this is that I believe in a God who had no beginning.
For example, if you were immortal, with no beginning and end, would you be bound by the concept of time? Time is just a perception, and probably not a reality. But does this defy logic? Because our actual understanding of time would logically ask - what happened BEFORE the Big Bang or Genesis account?
What I personally believe (i.e. I don't think this is taught by any religion) is a conclusion I've drawn from scriptures I studied when I wondered the same question.
Ecclesiastes 3:11, NWT: " Everything God has made pretty in it's own time. Even time indefinite he has put in their hearts."
Jude 25, RSV: "To God be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority before all time and now and forever. Amen."
Genesis 1:1, NWT: In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. (Beginning of what)
So I use these scriptures to conclude that God created the concept of time for humans to relate to, and that it's beyond our mental comprehension to determine what existed before the beginning. This answer satisfies me personally.
When it comes to believing in evolution, however, I find that this question cannot be answered satisfactorily. You could perhaps believe that time only started when the Big Bang happened. But what was there before the Big Bang? What caused the Big Bang?
There is a video on this website to explain how science believes that Something and Nothing are the same. http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/nstv/2011/07/how-the-universe-appeared-from-nothing.html
In my personal opinion this is totally illogical, but maybe that is because I am not physically-minded.
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point. 
The answer to it all is 42.I spent many a childhood moment, when I was on my own, thinking.... the universe and whole of space is beyond the sky. But what's beyond the universe? Nothing? It must surely go on forever?
But how can it go on forever? It must come to an end?
But what's beyond the end?
My golly, that question still f!cks me up to this day...
The Universe is infinite and without an end and therefore there is nothing beyond the end 'cos there isn't one is my understanding. You'd never get to its farthest reaches without travelling at several times the speed of light. But if the Universe is infinite it will not have an end and therefore there will be nothing beyond the end as the end does not exist. That's my understsanding at least.
Now the really interesting things are Black Holes - where do they go? Parrallel Universes?
It's not necessarily infinite but that doesn't mean it has to have an end either.
Do black holes have to go somewhere? I'm not even sure if we know that they collapse to a singularity or not but as far as I know, it's thought that they retain the mass, momentum and charge of what falls into them and they may evaporate with the emission of hawking radiation so it's not like what falls into them just vanishes.
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point. See our F1 related articles too!
