FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[racingstu]

I have to say, on the topic of KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems) set to be introduced in 2009 with the CVT (Continously Variable Transmission)s being legalised:

I researched the CVTs and (althought very awesome, technologically) the side-effects sound terrible - literally. With CVT gears, the engine stays at continuously steady revs and the gears change variably to control the speed. That means engines don't increase in pitch (make a higher sound) as the cars accelerate - they'll just sound like they're stuck in gear.

Does this sound awful to anyone else. I'm no super-F1-purist, I like change, but this is... hmmmm! I don't know. I don't like it.

Does anyone know better about this?

[Martin]

I agree, the sound is a large part of the spectacle

[Denthúl]

Quite so. One of the things that made me pay attention to F1 in the first place was the immense noise that came from the engines. It wouldn't be the same if they were at the same pitch constantly. It'd be like someone with a boring voice talking to you for hours on end about things you aren't interested in.

[bud]

good call, i did some searching and found this article about Williams

anned! Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT)
3 May 2007 by Keith Collantine
Williams unleashed one of the greatest technological blows the sport has ever seen in 1992 when their computer-controlled active suspension FW14B stormed the championship.

The technological onslaught continued in 1993 as traction control and anti-lock braking became commonplace and Williams’ rivals up and down the pit lane grappled with active suspension.

Astonishingly even as the FIA sought to ban the expensive innovations, several teams concocted radical new technologies even though they knew they would be illegal in 1994. Benetton’s four-wheel steer (discussed in an earlier ‘Banned!’) was one.

Another was Williams’ Continuously Variable Transmission - which could have revolutionised the way F1 cars sound, had it not been banned.

Great engineering innovations often start with an inspired logical observation. Here’s one:

If a car’s engine is constantly decelerating and accelerating, it is not operating at maximum efficiency. To do that it should rev constantly at the optimum point of power and torque.

This point was well understood by car engineers outside of Williams long before 1993. One solution was to do away with a conventional gearbox and instead use a system of pulleys to adapt the engine’s power in line with what the driver required.

The system - continuously (or “continually”) variable transmission - existed in various different forms. DAF had produced a road car in 1958 called the 600 (or “A-Type”) which featured a “Variomatic” gearbox - which was essentially a CVT.

The problem for using such technology in racing cars was the difficulty of finding a strong enough belt to transit the power from an F1 engine.

In 1993 Williams cracked it and David Coulthard tested the car on a wet July day at Pembrey in Wales. It was later driven by touring car racer Alain Menu (his Renault 19 race car was prepared by Williams at the time).

At first it was feared that a ban on electronically controlled gearboxes would do away with the CVT before it could race. But in the end the FIA came up with something much more direct to get rid of it.

They stipulated that, from 1994, F1 cars had to have between four and seven fixed gears - and for good measure added a sub-clause specifically banning CVT.

Williams’ CVT car sounded revolutionarily different to contemporary (and modern) F1 cars because of the different way it used the engine. Instead of the revs rising and falling with each corner they remaining constant through each bend - a wholly unusual sound for spectators.

There was also speculation that it had instantly proved several seconds per lap quicker than the conventional Williams - which was already streets ahead of its rivals.

Although the technology and offshoots of it have been used in road cars it remained too exotic for the increasingly stringent demands of Formula One. A lone, unraced Williams-Renault CVT sits in a DAF museum somewhere.

[racingstu]

Good find - that's exactly what I'm talking about. I don't think it'll sound... good. I mean, watch any young boy playing with toy cars and he'll make that "brrrRRRRRR, brrrRRRRRRRR, brrrRRRRRR" sound of the car shfiting up the gears. It's a classic.

I guess you'll still have the doppler effect (sound changing pitch as it whizzes past) but still. It's just not *cool*!

[Selcouth_Feline]

Although the technology and offshoots of it have been used in road cars

Just out of curiosity, anyone know how this technology (and it's offshoots) are used in road cars?

[racingstu]

Sure - very literally: continuously variable transmission have been placed into road cars with variable (no pun intended) success. The Ford Fiesta, Subaru Justy and Fiat Uno all had one, but were problematic. Nowadays all Toyota and Honda hybrid cars are equipped with CVTs, as well as the new Mini and some Audis.

There are still problems with the "strange" way the car sounds and the fact that there is no 'lurch' from acceleration, which is normally felt when the car upshifts.

[Martin]

Its a dilemma really, I think that all F1 fans like the sound of an F1 car doing its thing,I certainly love it, but F1 is supposed to be at the forefront of automotive technology, and KERS and CVT is set to become the norm on road cars within the foreseeable future.
KERS & CVT will make F1 cars more efficient and faster per horse power produced.
Those that disapprove of technology restrictions on F1 (like traction control, active suspension etc) will argue that the F1 car is likely to become a dinosaur if it does not keep up with modern technology. I heard one argument where someone said ' technology like traction control is on many road cars, and F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motor sport, how can that be when, in some respects, road cars have better technology than F1?'.
There is also the 'green' issue. There is currently another thread concerning making F1 more 'green', and it is an issue which the industry will have to deal with. KERS & CVT would go some way towards that.
Can we really cling on to our idea of what an F1 car should sound like, when technology and green issues offer a more efficient power transmission system?

[racingstu]

I supose you're right in that we all have to move on and embrace the new generation of technology. Some technology, like traction control, I think takes a bit away from the driving competition and was rightly removed.

However, do you not fear for the era when cars are not powered by petrol at all and become near silent. I think it'll be very weird indeed - the sound is all part of the atmosphere; the monstrous machines pounding across the tarmac. But I'm sure we'll get used to that too!

[7UpJordan]

I think using CVT transmissions in a race is a bad idea. It's alright if you're using it for testing or demonstrations a'la 2 seater McLaren/Minardis but taking away gear changing is more than just taking away the drivers having to change down gears, it takes away the skill as well involved. Changing down gear in an F1 car isn't just about pressing the down-shift lever a couple of times, it's all about timing your downshifts correctly, otherwise you can over-rev the engine and blow it, or spin like Hakkinen did at Monza in 1999 when he selected 2nd gear too quickly slowing down for the Retifilio.

[Denthúl]

^ The only '99 race I have never seen and you go and spoil it for me!

I agree, if it takes away the possibility of damaging your car or spinning off due to driver error, then Formula 1 will become more like Scalextrix, everyone glued to the track, the same car always winning (at least, it did that with mine).

[bud]

actually just reading the 2009 regs at the FIA website it says in reg 9.5.4 that CVT transmissions are illegal.

As Drivers have to change the gears manually albeit with out engaging the clutch manually as they do now. as CVT only works in fully automatic state controlled by the ECU of the car as the gearing is chosen relative to car speed keeping engine RPM to optimal range for that speed/gear. something the driver cannot do

[Jabberwocky]

Has anyone considered what other options there are the CVT using KERS? we could end up with a sort of Diesel Electric Locomotive type layout.

(Diesel Generator provides electrical power to Batteries and the electric motor that powers the train)

So all you would hear is the 2.4l V8 Petrol generator powering an electric motor. So all you will hear is a constant petrol engine running and an electric motor wizzing. Not much difference in sound to CVT.

[deMuRe]

actually just reading the 2009 regs at the FIA website it says in reg 9.5.4 that CVT transmissions are illegal.

As Drivers have to change the gears manually albeit with out engaging the clutch manually as they do now. as CVT only works in fully automatic state controlled by the ECU of the car as the gearing is chosen relative to car speed keeping engine RPM to optimal range for that speed/gear. something the driver cannot do

Well that's a bit of good news, the engine staying at the same revs would sound crap...