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[andrew]

How do you manage to drag these things off the original point so much,

EJ has to be listened to in light of what he has ascertained which have come true, doesn't matter about guess etc.

Maybe you forgot that it was EJ who broke the news of MS returning? 2 correct improbable assertions like that makes the guess/no guess issue irrelevant

50/50 guesses. The guy just reads a script, I'm sure of it. Dammit, now you've made me drag this further of the original point. How very naughty of you!

[What's Burning?]

How do you manage to drag these things off the original point so much,

EJ has to be listened to in light of what he has ascertained which have come true, doesn't matter about guess etc.

Maybe you forgot that it was EJ who broke the news of MS returning? 2 correct improbable assertions like that makes the guess/no guess issue irrelevant

50/50 guesses. The guy just reads a script, I'm sure of it. Dammit, now you've made me drag this further of the original point. How very naughty of you!

You're saying that because, well, you're andrew and that's what you do. But it's not 50/50 as you say. It's not 50/50 that I can predict that Aliens will land on this planet and be invited to have tea with your Queen within the next month or two. Because if it does happen, I'd be a well informed SOB. If it doesn't, then I'd be a blithering loony and we've got plenty of those already.

50/50 is being presented with a choice and choosing one. One choice is right, one choice is wrong. What you're holding onto in your obstinate way is not 50/50. No one put a choice in front of him and had him choose whether Lewis would be going to Mercedes, or Paddy going to Mercedes, or Schumacher going to Mercedes or Leaving Mercedes or not (all of which he was very much ahead of the curve or the beginning of the curve)

So what that tells me is that he's got a very good close personal little bird at Mercedes, that he's leveraging very well to scoop stories. Not that he's being presented with an option and choosing.

I'd ask you if you get it, but I know the answer.

[bud]

It would be a massively expensive and risky gamble. Supplying engines to a couple of teams didnt pay off for Cosworth. mclaren, with little expertise in engine tooling would have to turn around Cosworth, and find more teams to supply, at a time when Ferrari and Renault have engines that work well and are also after customer business
Funny how those who are so happy with McLaren being a pure racing team start to realise that only by being a mass producer of cars or engines can one hope to fund an F1 team

Ron is way too smart to create such a rod in his back

surely?

I dunno if rather have a middle eastern royal family with all their oil money over 60% of Daimler funding my team. Mercs not very committed are they!

McLaren had to pay out a 20 mill dividend last year. Not sure middle eastern royal families about to fund you with hundreds of millions to buy a decrepit engine maker would need to draw dividends.

Anyway, you ever heard of the Arab spring?, you heard that in Saudi they now let women in politics?

Yup, the Middle East rich royal families splashing the nations cash over things like fast cars while the people go hungry is coming to an end as fast as Daimlers turnover increasing

Edited for context

And the Daimler board is very confident in their F1 adventure, even at just 60% ownership there is rumbling going on in Stuttgart. Can you imagine if they owned the team fully?
Guess buying a British engine manufacturer and later buying into two British F1 teams is not bringing back the old Silver Arrows heritage for some deutche volk at Merc!

Things aren't so peachy keen on the Merc front with vast money to burn like you make out nor on the flip side is McLaren in dire straights.

[racechick]

They've only been back for three years! Give them a chance I'd say the money they're throwing at it to get the best people shows they're completely committed. Not peachy? there's change,yes. There has to be change if they want to move from middle grid to front end, and some changes might be painful ones, and there'll be some upheaval. But all I've seen from them is absolute intent to get to the front.

[bud]

They've only been back for three years! Give them a chance I'd say the money they're throwing at it to get the best people shows they're completely committed. Not peachy? there's change,yes. There has to be change if they want to move from middle grid to front end, and some changes might be painful ones, and there'll be some upheaval. But all I've seen from them is absolute intent to get to the front.

No ones doubting Brackley F1's management and share holders commitment to F1, problem is Stuttgart and Daimlers long term commitment, they are more concerned about selling road cars.

[CookinFlat6]

They've only been back for three years! Give them a chance I'd say the money they're throwing at it to get the best people shows they're completely committed. Not peachy? there's change,yes. There has to be change if they want to move from middle grid to front end, and some changes might be painful ones, and there'll be some upheaval. But all I've seen from them is absolute intent to get to the front.

No ones doubting Brackley F1's management and share holders commitment to F1, probably is Stuttgart and Daimlers long term commitment, they are more concerned about selling road cars.

Same could be said for Ferrari and now McLaren. Both have a racing racing history that makes them more committed?

Merc have a bigger and grander one than both teams

After all they invented the motorcar as we know it

[bud]

Ferrari and McLaren don't mass produce family cars.

Bigger and grander racing history? That's a big call considering the German marquee take 2 needing to buy into Britains F1 scene and not starting from scratch like the latter.

[LRW]

Dont you two ever get bored....?

[Jabberwocky]

At the heart of Mercedes is a Honda waiting to get out.

I wonder how many more cars Mercedes sell because of its F1 project?

[LRW]

At the heart of Mercedes is a Honda waiting to get out.

I wonder how many more cars Mercedes sell because of its F1 project?

6. If that? Same with Ferrari. I bet if they left F1, it wouldn't put a dent in their sales figures.

McLaren....? It might effect them slightly more, as they sell less maybe?

But overall I wouldnt of thought buying a 'supercar' would be infulenced by F1 at all. But what do I know, Im not in a position to buy one.

[bud]

Dont you two ever get bored....?

Sometimes

[Jabberwocky]

To be honest I am not sure if any f1 advertising works... but I would not tell any sponsors that. Maybe it is all a tax break

[What's Burning?]

I'd like to get a list of F1 sponsors together and see which ones I've actually plunked money down on. I'm thinking it's less than 10% if that.

[CookinFlat6]

At the heart of Mercedes is a Honda waiting to get out.

I wonder how many more cars Mercedes sell because of its F1 project?

6. If that? Same with Ferrari. I bet if they left F1, it wouldn't put a dent in their sales figures.

McLaren....? It might effect them slightly more, as they sell less maybe?

But overall I wouldnt of thought buying a 'supercar' would be infulenced by F1 at all. But what do I know, Im not in a position to buy one.

Ferrari dont spend a bean on advertising, they have a unique place. The markup on £200k sports cars is very very profitable. Merc although an auto giant want in on this space, they tried the SLr with McLaren, they now have the SLS and more coming.
Everyones eyeing Ferraris success and wanting to encroach the 200k space, Merc and now McLaren.

Ron Dennis was unimaginable brave by trying the British Ferrari route. It has not been a resounding success so far (no matter what the PR says) The Ferrari 458 has stiffled its sales in the middle East and America and the far east.

An F1 team as a standalone business relying on income from sponsors and advertisers and having to buy engines is not possible, even at 50mill a year (see HRT), at 200mill turnover its suicidal
So who is gonna pump in at least 150 a year with no return?

A car manufacture spending its supercar marketing budget? check
A fizzy drinks company spending 95% of its revenue on sorts promotion? check
A small specialist noble and brave British low volume Sports car and cartoon making business turning over less than 200 mill?
Ron has put his eggs in the Ferrari approach and with Whitmarsh and Button round not helping, things are at a precarious stage. Check the financials
Last year looked good because they sold the second factory at the MTC to the road car division

All Im saying is that I have been following McLaren for a while and you can forget about buying Cosworth etc, the F1 team + the other businesses are doing well to collectively compete near the top and remain solvent, the other businesses cannot generate the income to extend the credit line needed by the F1 side.(see Williams for a precedent)

If the road car division suddenly went ballistic and started outselling Ferrari, McLaren would ramp up sales for sure, and that might be the way out.

Will withdrawal or lack of success from F1 decrease sales of sportscars? didnt with Ferrari, but the MP4 12cs sales are lower than Ron gambled on - thats for sure, and I cannot see even winning F1 WCs helping that much, let alone the mediocrity Whitmarsh has induced

So where will McLaren F1s money keep coming from to stay near the front? or even to stay ahead of Williams? at a time your competitors for income from 200k car sales are the engine suppliers in F1?

The best solution for McLaren would be to hook up with a manufacturer and engine builder and become their works team (like RBR/Renault) and hope they give you engines and a budget but leave you in control

erm someone like Merc for example

[What's Burning?]

Ferrari winning or not does not directly impact their car sales. McLaren is in the same realm but obviously doesn't have the same base or following.

For Ferrari the goal is to sell road cars after all but that wasn't the goal originally. For high volume manufacturers an F1 association means they get more clout, that may help improve the perception of their sports cars whether they win or not the 'image' of an F1 car is still used in the advertising and marketing. It's why Infinity is investing in RBR. That investment may be less than what a full advertising blitz or a full racing program would cost. So accountants sit down and calculate everything that the marketing experts tell them but everything has a dollar value associated with it. Everything.