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[andrew]

A quick search on Google found this,

Heat is recovered by a single turbine that also drives the turbo compressor. The excess power not needed for the compressor will be generating electricity in a unit called MGUH. This electricity is immediately fed to the kinetic MGU that drives the rear wheels.

This I understand but what I'm not sure on is how is the heat recovered by the turbine and where is it harvested from? Brakes? Exhausts, engine, the drivers sweaty backside on the seat or from a combination of all heat generating devices on the car?

That looks to me like it's just the energy from the exhaust turbine that's left over after driving the compressor.

How is this energy collected?

[darwin dali]

Mercedes-Benz says the 2014 engine regulations are "about putting the motor back into motor sport".

The current 2.4-litre V8 engines will be replaced by 1.6-litre V6 turbo power units, with the term also encompassing the KERS, new ERS (Energy Recovery System), battery and electronics. Mercedes is attempting to make a unit that delivers 750bhp - the same as the current engines - but uses a maximum of 100kg of fuel compared to the current level of 150kg.

I thought today's engines made 850 bhp?!?

750bhp plus 80 bhp from KERS for 6.5s.

[What's Burning?]

So there is more effective overall horsepower in 2014, interesting. Guess Luca and Bernie not liking the way they 'sounded' wasn't enough of a deterrent.

[stonemonkey]

A quick search on Google found this,

Heat is recovered by a single turbine that also drives the turbo compressor. The excess power not needed for the compressor will be generating electricity in a unit called MGUH. This electricity is immediately fed to the kinetic MGU that drives the rear wheels.

This I understand but what I'm not sure on is how is the heat recovered by the turbine and where is it harvested from? Brakes? Exhausts, engine, the drivers sweaty backside on the seat or from a combination of all heat generating devices on the car?

That looks to me like it's just the energy from the exhaust turbine that's left over after driving the compressor.

How is this energy collected?

The motor generator unit connected to the exhaust turbine, the MGUH. I imagine it'll probably have variable loading (like the KERS MGU provides braking while taking energy from the drive) to control the compressor and keep it running at optimum speed with all surplus electrical energy being fed to the KERS MGU, and might work as a motor in some cases to reduce turbo lag if needed at low revs. From what you posted it doesn't sound like it goes into any storage though so the excess exhaust energy goes into directly assisting the drive from the engine rather than being under driver control like KERS.
That's just my take on it from what I've read so far so don't take my word for it.

[racechick]

It said in that article that the energy will come from seven different places and the cars won't be able to run without the system working. With KERS it only came from one place.

[Jabberwocky]

What about using a Williams style flywheel KERS on the turbo compressor spindle to sort out turbo lag?

[stonemonkey]

It said in that article that the energy will come from seven different places and the cars won't be able to run without the system working. With KERS it only came from one place.

Yep, that'll be a different part of the system from what Andrew quoted though. In that, it sounds like the surplus energy from the exhaust is converted to electrical energy which then goes directly to the KERS MGU to assist the drive without storage or driver control. In your link I think it's saying that energy will be collected from seven different paths and stored in the batteries to be used as the driver wants, where and how that's collected isn't explained but the kinetic energy from braking will be one of the paths.

What about using a Williams style flywheel KERS on the turbo compressor spindle to sort out turbo lag?

The Williams flywheel is still an electric storage, initially it was suggested it was going to be mechanically linked to the drive through a cvt but later turned out that it was like the battery systems and used an MGU but had the flywheel to store the electrical energy instead of the batteries.

I have no idea if turbo lag would be an issue with the rev range they'll have normally anyway, it might be only at startup or in the pits if at all, I only mentioned that because it's an MGU and not a GU.

Would you put a flywheel onto a turbo? with the airflow changing through the revs and changing gears wouldn't you rely on the compressor to be able to spin up down quickly?

[What's Burning?]

Red Bull was having a hard time getting KERS to work reliably... Can you imagine how they'll manage this?

[andrew]

Have they not got some trick miniture KERS unit though?

[What's Burning?]

It will be the most aerodynamic ERS, that's for sure.

[darwin dali]

It will be the most aerodynamic ERS, that's for sure.

Here's the prototype:

[madbrad]

racechick wrote:
It said in that article that the energy will come from seven different places and the cars won't be able to run without the system working.

So if the motor is so dependant on the KERS working perfectly, then a slight KERS issue results in retirement? Am I reading it right?

[stonemonkey]

I read

As Cowell himself admitted, racing without ERS in 2014 will be impossible.

as meaning it will be impossible to race anywhere near competitively without these systems because of the power they provide, the difference with/without will be so much bigger than we've seen with KERS up till now so there won't be any option other than to use it.

I'd guess that like many other things in the cars there could be parts that could fail without being terminal but there could also be failures that end their race.

[Jabberwocky]

It said in that article that the energy will come from seven different places and the cars won't be able to run without the system working. With KERS it only came from one place.

Yep, that'll be a different part of the system from what Andrew quoted though. In that, it sounds like the surplus energy from the exhaust is converted to electrical energy which then goes directly to the KERS MGU to assist the drive without storage or driver control. In your link I think it's saying that energy will be collected from seven different paths and stored in the batteries to be used as the driver wants, where and how that's collected isn't explained but the kinetic energy from braking will be one of the paths.

What about using a Williams style flywheel KERS on the turbo compressor spindle to sort out turbo lag?

The Williams flywheel is still an electric storage, initially it was suggested it was going to be mechanically linked to the drive through a cvt but later turned out that it was like the battery systems and used an MGU but had the flywheel to store the electrical energy instead of the batteries.

I have no idea if turbo lag would be an issue with the rev range they'll have normally anyway, it might be only at startup or in the pits if at all, I only mentioned that because it's an MGU and not a GU.

Would you put a flywheel onto a turbo? with the airflow changing through the revs and changing gears wouldn't you rely on the compressor to be able to spin up down quickly?

I was thinking more on the lines a clutch used to speed the flywheel up and then to spin the turbo up when it comes onto boost

[stonemonkey]

I don't know but it'll be interesting to see the approaches the different engine suppliers take, I hope there's room in the regs for creativity in how they're allowed to deal with the energy recovery. There is to be homologation but hopefully they'll still be able to develop some parts of the system, imo it sucks when they're stuck with what they've got and have to stick with it.

Some other points about it, with lower fuel consumption there'll be less weight difference from the start to the end of the race so the optimum qualifying setup might be closer to the optimum race setup and with taking energy from the exhaust there'll be less energy available to use for blowing the diffuser.