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[mnmracer]

How about simply counting the <something> overtakes, rather than only counting the overtakes where the driver didn't have a pickled gherkin stuck up his <something>?

There's 5 different types of overtakes counted.
Give me a stat you think is relevant then.

[What's Burning?]

How about doing a list discounting the number of overtakes from a car that had its setup totally changed, post qualifying, to aid overtaking.....?

How about we also take out overtakes from a car that by default is set-up to aid overtaking
If you take out Abu Dhabi, Vettel is still second in the top-cars-only category. That's why the indivudual race numbers are up there for all to see.

Dammit mnmracer, your post just gave me a heart attack... I thought you were back with the percentage of overtakes per completed lap!

Does it looks like I have such a life-less life?
Overtakes per completed lap is useless unless you ALSO consider how many of those laps were in the lead (i.e. can not overtake there).
I might make a more specified analysis a little later.

There's life outside of F1? Outside of this forum?

I don't think the calculation is useless though because there are drivers that are greatly penalized by having their races cut short, less laps completed means less opportunities to pass. I mean Alonso and Hamilton would have passed a few people in Spa right? If you're concerned about Vettel's numbers going down using that metric, I wouldn't worry as Lewis was leading in quite a few of the races he ended abruptly, so he'd suffer just as much as Vettel in that regards since he'd already be in the lead and have no one left to pass as well.

But who are we kidding, if it's a lot of work, you don't have to do the entire grid, we just care about a handful of drivers.

[scotty]

This conveniently ignores first lap passes (which should could, they are still on track passes), instances where a driver has come from the back - indeed i read that 40 of these passes occured in Abu Dhabi and Interlagos for Vettel. Passing Toro Rossos and the like constantly isn't really hard in one of the fastest cars.

Also, this disclaimer included in the original text was not included here:

The final criteria involves subjective judgements and consequently figures can never be regarded as ‘definitive’. Gaps in the available data, such as moves missed by TV cameras or obscured on lap charts by pit stops or retirements, mean that the data do not lend themselves to detailed analysis at the micro level, but are indicative of general trends.

Soo... yeah, if the Vettel fans want to gloat based on something that is self admittedly by the author not a fully reliable report, they should stop before they make themselves look a little stupid.

[mnmracer]

It's funny that no matter when or where statistics are posted, it are always the people who have their perception shattered who are quick to dismiss it.

Listen, rather than get your panties up in a knot, see the statistics and do with it what you want.
Ignore it if you're not interested in a different perception, or try to take from it what you want.
To seek a bias behind everything just because it doesn't fit your agenda is just sour grapes.

[scotty]

I never mentioned bias, just that people should stop talking big based on something that even the author admits isn't a complete picture. I'm interested in the most realistic and reliable data, which this sure as hell isn't - so my perception isn't actually being shattered or anything like that here, do not worry.

[LRW]

It's funny that no matter when or where statistics are posted, it are always the people who have their perception shattered who are quick to dismiss it.

Listen, rather than get your panties up in a knot, see the statistics and do with it what you want.
Ignore it if you're not interested in a different perception, or try to take from it what you want.
To seek a bias behind everything just because it doesn't fit your agenda is just sour grapes.

You cant post statistics in a Forum and not expect people to question or pick holes. So if you can't take the questioning, maybe you shouldn't post? Statistics only ever tell the story that the story teller wants to be told.

[Hammer278]

It's funny that no matter when or where statistics are posted, it are always the people who have their perception shattered who are quick to dismiss it.

Listen, rather than get your panties up in a knot, see the statistics and do with it what you want.
Ignore it if you're not interested in a different perception, or try to take from it what you want.
To seek a bias behind everything just because it doesn't fit your agenda is just sour grapes.

You cant post statistics in a Forum and not expect people to question or pick holes. So if you can't take the questioning, maybe you shouldn't post? Statistics only ever tell the story that the story teller wants to be told.

Yeah and believe it or not, some master statisticians in this forum could bend some full seasons stats to actually make Hamilton and Button look like drivers of EQUAL calibre!

[mnmracer]

I never mentioned bias, just that people should stop talking big based on something that even the author admits isn't a complete picture. I'm interested in the most realistic and reliable data, which this sure as hell isn't - so my perception isn't actually being shattered or anything like that here, do not worry.

So, tell me then, what is "the most realistic and reliable data"?

[mnmracer]

It's funny that no matter when or where statistics are posted, it are always the people who have their perception shattered who are quick to dismiss it.

Listen, rather than get your panties up in a knot, see the statistics and do with it what you want.
Ignore it if you're not interested in a different perception, or try to take from it what you want.
To seek a bias behind everything just because it doesn't fit your agenda is just sour grapes.

You cant post statistics in a Forum and not expect people to question or pick holes. So if you can't take the questioning, maybe you shouldn't post? Statistics only ever tell the story that the story teller wants to be told.

i am fine with people questioning it and then telling me what they want to see improved.
All that's happening now is a bunch of people saying 'it doesn't count', yet won't give any reason why. If you don't even know what is 'fair', you probably don't know whether it's unfair either.

[vlad]

It's hard to do statistics with so many "what if" guys around... You can't fulfill everyone's wishes, one of the great life's truths.

[Nin-Chin]

Overtaking is result of many different reasons even a car parked on the side of the road even so nearly everyone has gained from Hamilton 4 retirements on track.......,if you include it of course
800 posts................

[mnmracer]

Overtaking is result of many different reasons even a car parked on the side of the road even so nearly everyone has gained from Hamilton 4 retirements on track.......
800 posts................

The overtaking figures -courtesy of Clip The Apex- for each race (across all data sets) do not include:
- Positions gained when a car has a serious technical problem; e.g. puncture, accident damage, etc.

But you would have known that if you read beyond the first 4 paragraphs.

[myownalias]

800 posts................

You'll have to wait a while before you overtake me... see what I did there?

But you would have known that if you read beyond the first 4 paragraphs.

I read all of your post and quite enjoyed seeing Button up there in some of those stats!

[FerrariFan63]

There's 5 different types of overtakes counted.
Give me a stat you think is relevant then.

I think the stat that is relevant is how many overtakes each driver has performed on the track this year period.

Any attempts to produce different stats will reduce the sample size meaning that the standard errors of those stats will be larger, and they'll simply tell us less than the original stat.

And if these alternate stats are chosen after the year is finished, then all that is happening is one big statistical fishing expedition.

Note that "statistical fishing expedition" is an important term in real statistics, and is the reason why a lot of so-called "research" that even gets published in real academic journals is a pile of dingo's kidneys.

[mnmracer]

There's 5 different types of overtakes counted.
Give me a stat you think is relevant then.

I think the stat that is relevant is how many overtakes each driver has performed on the track this year period.

Well, is that stat not present?
These are the on-track overtakes.