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By mnmracer
#334000
I think fastest qualifier since Senna goes to Hamilton.

Hard to say. Maybe on his day (but on his day, there were also those faster than Senna), but considering their current team-mate qualifying stats are pretty similar, but Webber being a much better qualifier than Button, I think Vettel has shown more there.
By Big Azza
#334016
He also said Vettel is an ace.
I've seen people sainted for less ;)

But anyways, Villeneuve only mentioned where he saw Alonso's strenghts vs Vettel's. And the truth is... Villeneuve is not exactly a relevant person in F1 :D

So, How about this one: Where do you see Vettel's strenghts vs Alonso?

Vettel:
  • Fastest qualifier since Senna
  • Possibly most technical-savy driver on the grid (bar Schumi perhaps)
  • Extremely dedicated
  • Great team motivator
  • Delivers when it's crunch time in the championship
  • Thrives on a strong team mate

Alonso:
  • Fastest starter on the grid
  • Power-/forcefull overtaker
  • Get's the team to work for him
  • Doesn't let down when it's crunch time in the championship

Both: Rarely make mistakes,



I would add mechanical ability and consistency with qualifying for Vettel. And Alonso's high finishing rate along with strategic ability....
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By f1ea
#334030
Vettel:
  • Fastest qualifier since Senna
  • Possibly most technical-savy driver on the grid (bar Schumi perhaps)
  • Extremely dedicated
  • Great team motivator
  • Delivers when it's crunch time in the championship
  • Thrives on a strong team mate

Alonso:
  • Fastest starter on the grid
  • Power-/forcefull overtaker
  • Get's the team to work for him
  • Doesn't let down when it's crunch time in the championship

Both: Rarely make mistakes,


Vettel fastest Q since Senna?
I dont know about that. He is better than Alonso at Q. He's possibly the best right now, but i still wouldnt be too sure. Webber has taken him a couple times this season already, and then how about Maldonado and Lewis?

Possibly most savvy guy...
Are you aware you are stating the possibilty of an assumption?
i highly doubt he is the most technical savvy guy. It makes you look a lot better when you have Adrian Newey or Ross Brawn designing your cars and your competition is still talking about a wind tunnel correlation problem and countles dnf's ;) but regardless.... we have no way of knowing if Alonso is more knowledgeable or if Vettel is. They are both very close though. And very good too.

Extremely motivated.
You have to be joking. Who isn't extremely motivated?
Schumacher maybe. And how can you possibly say Vettel is more motivated than say... Kimi. Or Alonso, since he's the guy we're comparing him to right now.

Great team motivator.
More than Alonso? Again, this is only an opinion with no way of knowing. Let's say i tell you Alonso is a better team motivator...... how would anyone prove he isn't?

Delivers at crunch time.
Yes, this is a fact. His biggest strength actually. This can be seen and proven. Not an opinion.

Thrives with a strong teammate.
WHAT?!?!
You mean to say Webber is at his level despite essentially finishing 4th best driver in 2011 and where is he going to finish now in 2012? I'd say if Lewis doesnt have another failure, Mark could easily end up 5th in the same car that got several front row lockups and won the most races in a row. And a massively struggling Button in the same unrealiable car, is not that far from Webber.
Also, in the only season he had a strong teammate they crahsed with eachother and Webber was publicly open about his dislike with the team's "procedings"....

Sooooo... niet zo goed mnm. Nog eens probeeren AUB :)

But Alonso got hit by Kimi (who was behind) while avoiding Button. AND got hampered in the very same race Q by Kimi spinning it.

Yea Kimi did try to avoid it, but didn't; and i've seen the replay like 50 times. So i'd fix that table with 50% of those lost points in Japan.


You'll find that most people feel (insurance agents included) that when you turn into someone else, you are the one at fault ;-)
Considering they didn't give Malaysia to Vettel, where Karthikeyan was penalized for it no less, there is no way Alonso has any right to Japan.


Yea, he also failed to signal and was going way above the legal speed limit.

The crash with Karthikeyan was absolutely different. First of all... it was in the middle of the race (ie not on the 1st lap). Stewards are VERY forgiving on first lap incidents. Even Grosjean crash at Belgium was penalised for him moving over. He was penalised for the potential to serious injury, removing several competitors and his recurrence.
I wont even get into Blue flags.

So... most race incident crashes are around 50/50, except stuff like when MS hit Jean eric in Singapore... so, since the stewards didnt punish Button, and didnt punish Alonso... i'd say it was a racing incident; just stuff that happens.. 50% blame. ;)
By mnmracer
#334055
Vettel fastest Q since Senna?
I dont know about that. He is better than Alonso at Q. He's possibly the best right now, but i still wouldnt be too sure. Webber has taken him a couple times this season already, and then how about Maldonado and Lewis?

Until Hamilton and Vettel came along, Webber was top dog in qualifying.
Yet Vettel beats Webber with the same numbers as Lewis beats Button, from the very day he joined Red Bull.

Every great qualifier is ocassionaly beaten, it's about the consistency with which you beat the others.
And beating a top qualifier like Webber 4 out of 5 times, sounds pretty consistent.

Possibly most savvy guy...
Are you aware you are stating the possibilty of an assumption?
i highly doubt he is the most technical savvy guy. It makes you look a lot better when you have Adrian Newey or Ross Brawn designing your cars and your competition is still talking about a wind tunnel correlation problem and countles dnf's ;) but regardless.... we have no way of knowing if Alonso is more knowledgeable or if Vettel is. They are both very close though. And very good too.

Extremely motivated.
You have to be joking. Who isn't extremely motivated?
Schumacher maybe. And how can you possibly say Vettel is more motivated than say... Kimi. Or Alonso, since he's the guy we're comparing him to right now.

These are a combination of things.
Every team he's worked with has praised him for his tech savy-ness.
He was the only driver to visit Pirelli prior to 2011.
He is usually the last driver out of the paddock at night.
He declined personal sponsors in order to focus more on racing.
Even look at last year, Abu Dhabi, where nothing was on the line anymore that season; that tire puncture was studied more than the Kenedy assasination.

That's a type dedication you rarely see.

Great team motivator.
More than Alonso? Again, this is only an opinion with no way of knowing. Let's say i tell you Alonso is a better team motivator...... how would anyone prove he isn't?

That's why I said, Alonso gets the team to work for him, there's a difference I think.
With Ferrari, you feel they work for him because of the power Alonso holds; deservedly so, but there feels more distance.

Compare that to Red Bull, where Vettel is never short on praising his team (not the RB team, HIS team), where he dedicates a helmet to them, where's he's even said to make sandwhiches for the guys when they work late. It just feels different.

Thrives with a strong teammate.
WHAT?!?!
You mean to say Webber is at his level despite essentially finishing 4th best driver in 2011 and where is he going to finish now in 2012? I'd say if Lewis doesnt have another failure, Mark could easily end up 5th in the same car that got several front row lockups and won the most races in a row. And a massively struggling Button in the same unrealiable car, is not that far from Webber.
Also, in the only season he had a strong teammate they crahsed with eachother and Webber was publicly open about his dislike with the team's "procedings"....

We were comparing Vettel and Alonso; I think the same applies to Lewis.
Webber and Button are very similar: on their day they can beat the best, but they usually lack consistency. However, Webber is (almost) always a force to be reckoned with in qualifying. But look at 2010, look at this year; Webber has a good run early in the year, or half-way through the year, but Vettel never let's loose.

Compare that to Fernando, who lost his mind when Trulli and Lewis were giving him a hard time and hasn't had a strong team mate since (except early 2010, where Massa outraced Alonso in 4 out of the first 7 races, before he hit a bad run of 3 races and then Germany; Massa hasn't been the same since).

The crash with Karthikeyan was absolutely different. First of all... it was in the middle of the race (ie not on the 1st lap). Stewards are VERY forgiving on first lap incidents. Even Grosjean crash at Belgium was penalised for him moving over. He was penalised for the potential to serious injury, removing several competitors and his recurrence.
I wont even get into Blue flags.

So... most race incident crashes are around 50/50, except stuff like when MS hit Jean eric in Singapore... so, since the stewards didnt punish Button, and didnt punish Alonso... i'd say it was a racing incident; just stuff that happens.. 50% blame. ;)

Japan was 100% in Alonso's hands. Button left him space, Kimi left him space.
Doesn't mean it needed to be punished, not everything does, but Alonso has no one to look at for that but himself.

:drink: voor het Nederlands
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By racechick
#334057
On qualifying Lewis beat Alonso convincingly in his Rookie year and has demolished all comers since then. You can't take the one lap speed away from him. Quali king!! I'll let you argue the rest amongst yourselves :wink:
By andrew
#334058
I think Vettel is the qualifying king but seeing as there ain't no points in qualifying I ain't too worried.
Last edited by andrew on 15 Nov 12, 20:32, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By scotty
#334060
Quali is that important? Check the result from Suzuka '05 :thumbup:
By Hammer278
#334063
Quali is that important? Check the result from Suzuka '05 :thumbup:


You can't deny the circumstances surrounding that race not to mention the 2005 McLaren was one hell of a car in relation to the opposition whenever it didn't break down.
By What's Burning?
#334066
not to mention the 2005 McLaren was one hell of a car in relation to the opposition whenever it didn't break down.

The more things change the more they stay the same eh?
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By f1ea
#334072
I think it's pretty close in Q between Lewis and Vettel. But right now they are the 2 best Qualifiers. Lewis maybe better because he can get the pole no matter how the car is; Vettel is strong because if the car is good enough, he will be perfect.

Until Hamilton and Vettel came along, Webber was top dog in qualifying.
Yet Vettel beats Webber with the same numbers as Lewis beats Button, from the very day he joined Red Bull.

Every great qualifier is ocassionaly beaten, it's about the consistency with which you beat the others.
And beating a top qualifier like Webber 4 out of 5 times, sounds pretty consistent.


Yea Webber is pretty good in Q. But he is also inconsistent. That's where Vettel has made the picnic out of him. But if you look at times when Vettel has not had the car to put it on pole, he hasn't come up with stuff like Hamilton and some others have. So basically, if the car is good, Vettel will be perfect. But Lewis has been faster in Q even without being perfect or having the car to do it.

These are a combination of things.
Every team he's worked with has praised him for his tech savy-ness.
He was the only driver to visit Pirelli prior to 2011.
He is usually the last driver out of the paddock at night.
He declined personal sponsors in order to focus more on racing.
Even look at last year, Abu Dhabi, where nothing was on the line anymore that season; that tire puncture was studied more than the Kenedy assasination.

That's a type dedication you rarely see.


Every team he's worked with in F1 has been Red Bull. Declining personal sponsorship is not all that much, considering he is supported by the strongest financial backing of F1. I'm sure lots of guys would decline sponsors (and their obligations) if they could afford it.

That's why I said, Alonso gets the team to work for him, there's a difference I think.
With Ferrari, you feel they work for him because of the power Alonso holds; deservedly so, but there feels more distance.

Compare that to Red Bull, where Vettel is never short on praising his team (not the RB team, HIS team), where he dedicates a helmet to them, where's he's even said to make sandwhiches for the guys when they work late. It just feels different.


Of course it will feel different. Red Bull is nowhere close as Ferrari (as an institution) and Mclaren (in the way they run their team). When Alonso went from Renault (a similarly run team/operation a RB) he kinda struggled with the "coldness" of everything. So in general, you are giving Vettel praise for qualities which are more attributable to Red Bull than himself.

He is good with the team though. And a nice guy too. He's got this certain childish charm. Maybe what Villeneuve was referring to :p

We were comparing Vettel and Alonso; I think the same applies to Lewis.
Webber and Button are very similar: on their day they can beat the best, but they usually lack consistency. However, Webber is (almost) always a force to be reckoned with in qualifying. But look at 2010, look at this year; Webber has a good run early in the year, or half-way through the year, but Vettel never let's loose.

Compare that to Fernando, who lost his mind when Trulli and Lewis were giving him a hard time and hasn't had a strong team mate since (except early 2010, where Massa outraced Alonso in 4 out of the first 7 races, before he hit a bad run of 3 races and then Germany; Massa hasn't been the same since).


Massa hasn't been the same since the accident, period. Even when Massa outscore Alonso early in 2010, it was for Alonso's mistakes, blown engine etc. But on pace... Massa has never been close, except on a handful of occasions.

So the truth is, Vettel has been facing a much stronger opponent; but Webber is not on his level. Like you said, on his day, he can get him, but in general Vettel outdoes him day in day out. BUT again, usually through mistakes and judgement errors from Mark.

Mentally, Vettel is super strong. Despite dealing with the pressure of a tough teammate, of having to come from behind, all the mental games, being young, etc.... He can still sit down and deliver. Without controversy. Even if he is more childish, and reacts less calmly than Alonso it doesn't matter too much. That's why i didn't see why you were so bothered about what Villeneuve had to say. I think it is absolutely true, haha. But like i said, Alonso is older and in a less lax team, so it is kinda understandable. Alonso has this over Vettel, staying calm and being cold. Very Mclaren like ;) he's from the North of spain though....

Ok that was long and i'm tired now
Ik heb een beertje nodig. Voor het NL! Proost :drink:
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By scotty
#334075
Quali is that important? Check the result from Suzuka '05 :thumbup:


You can't deny the circumstances surrounding that race not to mention the 2005 McLaren was one hell of a car in relation to the opposition whenever it didn't break down.


Except for the Renault, yeah, best two cars there in that season. But equally you can't deny how freaking hard it is to pass at Suzuka and how utterly great that drive was from 17th in the DRY!! :)
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By f1ea
#334076
Quali is that important? Check the result from Suzuka '05 :thumbup:

One of the best races ever.
User avatar
By LewEngBridewell
#334090
Quali is that important? Check the result from Suzuka '05 :thumbup:

One of the best races ever.


Turn 1 on the final lap :cloud9:
By What's Burning?
#334941
I'm kind of in wrap up thought mode for the year, and I've got to say that this is the best year I've seen Vettel drive. Which makes it even more important because Alonso had also driver exceptionally well this year and Lewis has had the best year as a driver since he got into F1. It's been a very mistake free season by most of the top drivers.

Next week whether it's Vettel or Alonso, it's been a great season and a well earned 3rd WDC for whichever of them comes out on top.
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By vlad
#334943
I must say you're right. This season was really crazy, and yet, in the end, the best 3-4 drivers are on the top again. They just seem to make a miracle on some races, even when the car is not that good and the teammate is nowhere in sight...
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