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[nikon133]

Mercedes bought out the reigning champs, which is the pretty much the best baseline to start from. So no realistic excuse there, maybe teething problems with the changeover but that would not still be present this amount of time later. If anything they have, generally speaking, fallen back since the start of 2010.

My opinion as well. They are almost repeating BMW story - high expectations, low delivery.

Yes of course they can surprise next year. Mayhap they already have prototype (and simulations) they could have confidentially presented to Lewis to point they are likely to be strong next year. But if we ignore such conspiracy theory, based on pure stats, there is absolutely no reason to expect Mercedes to better McLaren next year.

[nikon133]

All we have now, is personal opinions, and it is a long way till March comes. Somehow after the recent big news I have lost a bit of my interest in this seasons championship, and Jenson's penalty in japan ...WTF I hope Lewis hasn't lost completely his motive to fight till the end of the season.

Nah. Love or not between him and the team, he will race for himself, if nothing else.

[What's Burning?]

The one constant is we won't know how the grid will show up next year. The same thing you've said about Mercedes today could be said about Honda in 2008 yet we know the car they brought to the grid in 2009. We'll know soon enough if the commitment Mercedes is making is all show or for real. In 2014, it's a clean slate and who knows what we'll get then so lots of uncertainty for all not just Mercedes.

[darwin dali]

Guys... guys... all this animosity, bickering and discussing things that have yet to even begin let alone finalized.

As an F1 fan in general, I think this will bring a completely new dimension to next year's that I'm very much excited about and very much excited to see develop. You can't say you love the sport without being very curious about what Mercedes can do how McLaren will fare, and beyond that, what the 2014 regulations bring us.

Very exciting times indeed.

[CookinFlat6]

I think psychologigal problem (if any) is more likely to be on Lewis than on McLaren side.

I also think most young drivers who got in competitive seat (and equal opportunity) end up having more than average number of avoidable accidents, compared to drivers left to mature before being dropped into the heat; think Pastor, think Domain. Think younger Lewis. It is not about what drivers want. It is about what is good for them.

Is it really much different than, say, fighter pilots? Do they get to fly real missions right after introduced to their F16/F18 seats? Or do they fly hundreds of training and simulation missions before seeing real action? Talent is important, but there is no substitute for skill, experience, finesse that comes with time and maturity.

There is just no way driver who got his first F1 seat molded should be let to compete for title. No one is THAT good. And it is not good for the team not to tame raw talents.

At the end, driver is part of the team, not the other way around.

Just my humble opinion. We both know we are not going to agree on this one.

You are joking right?

You do know that Lewis bagged podium in a string of races in his rookie season? Infact a stick often wielded by the haters is that he became less consistent after his first year or two

Yes rookies crash a lot in their first couple of seasons (Perez, Grosjean, Maldododo etc) and should not generally be allowed to compete for a title and gues what? thats why they generally are not

Lewis by most definitions would have won in his first year without Alonso present, he did win in his second year, so someone is that good - Lewis!

[Ferrari man 009]

I think psychologigal problem (if any) is more likely to be on Lewis than on McLaren side.

I also think most young drivers who got in competitive seat (and equal opportunity) end up having more than average number of avoidable accidents, compared to drivers left to mature before being dropped into the heat; think Pastor, think Domain. Think younger Lewis. It is not about what drivers want. It is about what is good for them.

Is it really much different than, say, fighter pilots? Do they get to fly real missions right after introduced to their F16/F18 seats? Or do they fly hundreds of training and simulation missions before seeing real action? Talent is important, but there is no substitute for skill, experience, finesse that comes with time and maturity.

There is just no way driver who got his first F1 seat molded should be let to compete for title. No one is THAT good. And it is not good for the team not to tame raw talents.

At the end, driver is part of the team, not the other way around.

Just my humble opinion. We both know we are not going to agree on this one.

You are joking right?

You do know that Lewis bagged podium in a string of races in his rookie season? Infact a stick often wielded by the haters is that he became less consistent after his first year or two

Yes rookies crash a lot in their first couple of seasons (Perez, Grosjean, Maldododo etc) and should not generally be allowed to compete for a title and gues what? thats why they generally are not

Lewis by most definitions would have won in his first year without Alonso present, he did win in his second year, so someone is that good - Lewis!

I wouldnt even blame Alonso, a mixture of poor strategy in China and a temporary gearbox faliure cost him the championship, not to mention the bad luck and lost points in Europe and Turkey too!

Even as a Ferrari fan, had Lewis won in 2007, I would have said he deserved it. Kimi won 1 more race than Lewis and Alonso, but McLaren had the better car and should have won both championships.

For Lewis i think its a smart move. Lewis isnt annoyed with the development of the McLaren this year i'd guess, I think its more to do with the rookie errors McLaren keep having which costs them points, however, the only reliable team this season has been Ferrari, hence why Alonso leads the championship.

[Injen]

I remember Brawn talking about fighting out for the championship in frond of the field, before this season started, and even their only GP win was just lucky. How can anyone claim they will dominate in 2014? the other teams won't hang out and watch... See for ex. Lotus - Renault who destroyed them this season and imo they will do wonders in 2014

Are you a betting man because going by the facts you would be mad betting against Ross Brawn and Mercedes pulling it out of the hat,hell they could spring a nasty surprise next year for all you know.I'm a Mclaren fan and a Lewis fan,i'm gutted Mclaren have sunk low in the last 12 years but i also love Mercedes cars,i drive one and have always had a merc in the driveway once i could afford to drive they're cars.

Let's look at the fact because they don't lie.

McLaren last won a constructors title in 1998, before Hamilton delivered the drivers in 2008 it was Hakkinen in 99 that brought home it's last. So in the last 12 years they've brought home 1 drivers title nothing else. Ross Brawn on the other hand has delivered 8 drivers titles with 3 different teams and 7 constructors. So if you ask yourself who is better placed to sell success then Brawn and Mercedes will be very well placed to challenge in the not to distant future. McLaren can win races yes, but titles, well, the facts don't lie.

[vaptin]

Correlation does not equal causation.

[theTruth]

Here's the thing since I'm sensing a little love loss between the McLaren fans and Lewis fans...

Lewis made his decision based on what he felt was best for him. Fair enough and there is nothing to argue about that point, like it or not.

What a fan of Mclaren has to ask is why did Lewis make that decision and if it was something that was simply a perception by Lewis or a reality based on the way Mclaren implemented their management within the team, the policies dictating contractual driver obligations, or even the offer they made at the time of the contract renegotiation. McLaren have just as much responsibility for the outcome, and they set a value for him as a driver and obviously Lewis felt that value was less than his team mate. Ultimately this value (monetary and otherwise) led to the outcome we had. Why then blame Lewis for being greedy or a traitor or ungrateful or a spoiled brat or a poor driver unable to win another championship or whatever it is that's thrown his way without also holding McLaren to the same level of accountability for their failings?

In other words, McLaren says, it will be better without Lewis and they say the driver lineup of Button/Perez will be better for them than the driver lineup of Button/Lewis, or else they would have fought harder to keep the guy. McLaren fans have to accept that.

Does anyone think if Lewis today was contending for the lead with Alonso, (the haul of points lost due to the various issues) and the entire McLaren staff was coalesced around getting Lewis a WDC that he would have walked?

McLaren made a decision in this situation just as much as Lewis made a decision. We move forward and we'll find out who will benefit most out of those decisions in the short term. No one doubts that McLaren will be in the sport long after Mercedes leave again, no one doubts that McLaren will win another WCC at some point in the future, but McLaren made a decision, perhaps to gamble, not just by the monetary offer but by the support Lewis felt he was getting from the team.

McLaren let a guy who is arguably the best driver in the sport today walk away. We'll see how it all unfolds.

Just based on a quick read, I like this very much. . . . Don't think I disagree with anything, except maybe Mercedes walking away again. Not enough info to speculate even, on my part. But I think, as to how you address the McLaren loyalists, and their team's absolute, absolute . . . (still don't have exactly the words to express it adequately, so I'll leave it there, for the moment).

[Hammer278]

Correlation does not equal causation.

No, but the it has the highest probability to result in one. And that's the only basis anyone and everyone takes into account in decision making, otherwise it's just gambling.

[What's Burning?]

Correlation does not equal causation.

yet card counters get kicked out of casinos, indeed correlation does not equal causation, however statistically, things move a lot closer your way.

[vaptin]

Correlation does not equal causation.

No, but the it has the highest probability to result in one. And that's the only basis anyone and everyone takes into account in decision making, otherwise it's just gambling.

It's not the only basis, the factors this time are different, I already posted about this, the big names Mercedes have signed aren't prestigious as the ones that went to Ferrari, there are budget caps and standardised tyres too. Plus recent history too, Mercedes have promised championship contention ever since they came back into F1, never got anywhere yet. Ferrari also had the commitment for a long term project, Lewis also approached, not brought in by a master plan from Brawn. The team setup will be massively different, to Ferrari under Todt and Mont. too.

[What's Burning?]

Since Mercedes has been back in F1 trying to win, Ferrari have also been trying to win, Renault/Lotus have also been trying to win, McLaren have also been trying to win and Mercedes as well. It's not a problem limited to Merc alone. They've made no progress is one issue but not winning... they're got one more win than Lotus.

I'm looking forward to 2013.

[vaptin]

Since Mercedes has been back in F1 trying to win, Ferrari have also been trying to win, Renault/Lotus have also been trying to win, McLaren have also been trying to win and Mercedes as well. It's not a problem limited to Merc alone. They've made no progress is one issue but not winning... they're got one more win than Lotus.

I'm looking forward to 2013.

I'm looking forward to it too, I also want to see 2012 too, anyway:

But Mercedes have been less successful than all those teams mentioned.

[Jabberwocky]

Since Mercedes has been back in F1 trying to win, Ferrari have also been trying to win, Renault/Lotus have also been trying to win, McLaren have also been trying to win and Mercedes as well. It's not a problem limited to Merc alone. They've made no progress is one issue but not winning... they're got one more win than Lotus.

I'm looking forward to 2013.

I am sure every team on the grid is trying to win