FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[Jabberwocky]

What is it that they do not get in F1 that means they are not in the fight for the Championship. I would of thought that Toyota and Honda would have enough knowledge, money, motorsport experience to make a decent go of it.

So what are they missing?

[bud]

Experience.

[Denthúl]

I think that experience is part of it, but also the fact that they are still doing it in a corporate way. A racing team run in the same way as a major corporation will not work, because things need to be done completely differently. Honda are starting to change that, and Ross Brawn will make sure they do, but Toyota have nobody pushing them. I also think that money is a part of it - Toyota, to me, seem to be in it to earn money rather than to race and to win.

[McLaren Fan]

I think that experience is part of it, but also the fact that they are still doing it in a corporate way. A racing team run in the same way as a major corporation will not work, because things need to be done completely differently. Honda are starting to change that, and Ross Brawn will make sure they do, but Toyota have nobody pushing them. I also think that money is a part of it - Toyota, to me, seem to be in it to earn money rather than to race and to win.

I agree with you. One of the problems, especially with Toyota, was the men in grey suits on the other side of the world would not butt out and leave matters to the people who know best i.e. the engineers etc.

[AKR]

Honda won (as an engine supplier) for (Constructors Championship) with Williams in 1986 and 1987 and with McLaren 1988, 1989, 1990 and 1991 and then the Drivers Championship with Williams in 1987 and McLaren from 1988, 1989, 1990 and 1991. So engine wise Honda has plenty of experience. They just need to put it together on their own as a team. Say I just remembered something. Had Frank Williams never had that unfortunate accident that put him on a wheel chair, Honda wouldn't of done the dirty and ditched Williams for McLaren. So McLaren gained Honda engines and won championships at the expense of Frank Williams' tragic accident. It is strange how McLaren supporters never talk about this. Maybe we should remember McLaren's fortunes at the expense of others from the past rather than also complain on how the FIA allegedly always helps out Ferrari.

[Denthúl]

Maybe you should stop dragging your McLaren hatred into every topic?

Seriously, this topic had nothing to do with McLaren whatsoever. Nor the FIA, nor Ferrari. There was no need to say any of that, seeing as Ferrari, McLaren, Williams and the FIA are not Japanese manufacturers.

[McLaren Fan]

Honda won (as an engine supplier) for (Constructors Championship) with Williams in 1986 and 1987 and with McLaren 1988, 1989, 1990 and 1991 and then the Drivers Championship with Williams in 1987 and McLaren from 1988, 1989, 1990 and 1991. So engine wise Honda has plenty of experience. They just need to put it together on their own as a team. Say I just remembered something. Had Frank Williams never had that unfortunate accident that put him on a wheel chair, Honda wouldn't of done the dirty and ditched Williams for McLaren. So McLaren gained Honda engines and won championships at the expense of Frank Williams' tragic accident. It is strange how McLaren supporters never talk about this. Maybe we should remember McLaren's fortunes at the expense of others from the past rather than also complain on how the FIA allegedly always helps out Ferrari.

McLaren got the deal because of Senna going to McLaren, you fool. Get your facts right before you speak. Besides, there's nothing illegal or devious about Honda switching from Williams to McLaren. Again, I repeat the charge: you hate McLaren more than you love Ferrari. It's also worth pointing out that this debate is irrelevant and that you have dragged the topic off course again.

Besides, there is more to building an engine in Formula One. Honda are now trying to build the whole car and their experience of winning championships is how old? The 1980s and early 1990s. A lot has moved on since then.

[AKR]

Yes it did have everything to do with it. Stop making me look bad. MCLAREN-HONDA a successfull team of the late 80s early 90s. HONDA the Japanese engine supplier that powered McLaren to successes back then. Williams had this success as well with HONDA THE JAPANESE MANUFACTURER. Honda took the engines of them after Frank Williams ended up on a wheel chair and gave them to McLaren who used HONDA THE JAPANESE MANUFACTUER to win. It is relevent to the topic, sorry you don't want to hear the facts of what happened back then. Hadred of any sort was not mentioned by myself.

[Denthúl]

The discussion isn't about the engines, it's about the team as a whole. It's already been established by pure fact that they make good cars and good engines. The discussion is relating to the teams and why they can't seem to build a good car like other F1 teams.

They are trying to use the corporate approach of their business to the world of Formula 1, which can not operate successfully in such a way. To me, it just looks like you brought the subject of engines up to take another dig at McLaren. I don't like Ferarri, I don't like McLaren. But I don't dislike either of them. They're just other teams that I respect. But it gets annoying when I see people using every single opportunity they can to take a dig at one or the other, especially when it's not necessary.

[McLaren Fan]

Yes it did have everything to do with it. Stop making me look bad. MCLAREN-HONDA a successfull team of the late 80s early 90s. HONDA the Japanese engine supplier that powered McLaren to successes back then. Williams had this success as well with HONDA THE JAPANESE MANUFACTURER. Honda took the engines of them after Frank Williams ended up on a wheel chair and gave them to McLaren who used HONDA THE JAPANESE MANUFACTUER to win. It is relevent to the topic, sorry you don't want to hear the facts of what happened back then. Hadred of any sort was not mentioned by myself.

Eh, I know the facts, so I don't need you to tell me them, with your cankerous slant on them. The fact is Honda were free to change and did so. It's absolutely below the belt for you to suggest that McLaren preyed on Sir Frank Williams' injury. It's also absurd to claim that Honda's experience as an engine supplier from decades ago is going to count for a lot now.

P.S. I'm not making you look back; you're doing that yourself.

[AKR]

Whatever McLaren Fan, your convinced you know more than everyone about the sport. You are also convinced I know nothing (a nice insult to me but I should congratulate you as you have done well to upset me if that was indeed your intention). Somehow I have trouble finding the documentation on where I read this. It may be in a magazine back home in Italy which means unfortunately I can't even show you. Either way I never said McLaren commited a crime for taking the Honda engines of Williams. Good luck to them. But I can tell you there were people in those grey suits at Honda back then who would of questioned Frank William's ability to run the team after his accident. And on the original topic Honda was successful in the engine side of things having won for both Williams and Honda and perhaps may be a reason why they have the edge on Toyota.

[Denthúl]

But Toyota are also proving to be successful in the engine area - Williams use Toyota engines and look how well they did last season. It's the way in which Japanese manufacturers try to run their teams which is the problem, not their ability to design cars and engines.

[AKR]

Well perhaps then, when the engine is used by an expeienced team then they have more success. Honda was successfull in the 80s and early 90s because the teams that powered them where experienced teams like Williams and McLaren. Williams is doing well with a Toyota engine and I see them doing better than the Toyota works team this year as well. This is because Williams is an experienced team where as Toyota (and Honda) as there own team are not experienced. Would this of meant that if Renault made a team from scratch would they of struggled? They were successfull with Williams and Benetton who were experienced teams. And they were better with Williams than they were with Benetton because Williams was a more experienced team than Benetton. Also when they became Renault they really just took over Benetton an already experieced team. So perhaps it all comes down to experience of the team and since Honda and Toyota have had little of this as their own teams, this could be the reason why they are not doing all so well.

[Denthúl]

Exactly, and that's something stated above. But the difference between Honda and Toyota is that Honda are changing their ways, whilst Toyota remain the same. So, if Toyota don't change then eventually even Super Aguri, which I feel will be the slowest team of next year, will pass them because their parent company is changing. Plus, their team boss is a person with the kind of racing spirit that's necessary, I think.

[stonemonkey]

On that line of thought, compare to another new manufacturer that's come in recently by taking over an experienced team, BMW.