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[bud]

http://www.Forumula1wasteland.net

[Mr.Snuggles]

haha your so funny...

[AKR]

Bud I thought you were Australian. In Australia English is spoken but they are not English just like the Americans who also speak English are not English they are American. So sorry if I didn't know you were Engish and assumed you were Australian. I make my nationality clear, sorry I wasn't clear on yours. Apology.

Now Mr Snuggles may I ask how old are you? Just a note, (to everyone) I really hate this name calling. I was forced to call Bud a git and i didn't like it but he called me am idiot and he has done so several times. And he has called me moron etc. Can we all just stop this name calling and just express our opinions. We are never going to agree so we might as well at least agree not to call each other insult names.

Now what McLaren did. They had access to a 200 page plus Ferrari dossier which were specs of a car much superior than theirs. They got this information and used it to make their car as good as Ferrari's car and thus chellenge us for the title with our own technology. Although this type of behaviour might be ok in war where it is survival of the fittest, it isn't ok in sport where it is called cheating and also called theft in the normal everyday world. Yes I know an ex Ferrari employee done it but hey if I get fired from my job and sell confidential information to a competitor I could go to jail and it would not the fault of my ex company that I got that information as there is no way they could of prevented me from taking it while I worked there. Same could be said about Nigel Stepney and Ferrari. He then sold it and the McLaren criminals that bought, knowling it was illegal what they were doing were clearly breaking the rules and the law for that matter and were therefore rightfully punished.

[bud]

you say they used the information can you go into detail please

and Stepney did not sell it. youre wrong there

and where was your sob story with Toyota case? bet you didnt even give a s***! convenient!

[Denthúl]

But still, it wasn't the decision of the team to buy it, just Coughlan. He then distributed it to certain people within the team without the authorisation of the management, them having no idea about the file. Remember that, once Ron Dennis found out about it, he went to the FIA about it. Would you have done that if you had initially ordered your team to get that information and use it? I'm not saying McLaren are innocent, but I think it is unfair of you to dig at the whole team when it was only certain individuals.

Something I do not agree with is you saying the Ferrari was the vastly superior car. They were evenly matched to begin with, the Ferrari edging the McLaren a little. But the Ferrari wasn't as reliable as the McLaren, and the longer wheel base of the Ferrari meant that it struggled more when using the kerbs, whereas the McLarens could pass their wheels over them with little problem. True, they may have gained some advantage from the Ferrari data to help them later on, but the McLaren was a good car to begin with, just as it was in previous years. They fixed the reliability problems that had plagued them in the past and prevented Kimi from getting his world title, and suddenly the McLaren was closer to the Ferrari.

[Mr.Snuggles]

Fully Agree
and on my note, i can support who i want
i haven't show boated for your information
i get bored of my banner or avatar and wanted a change
i support them both
1 because 1 is more in the competition
2 i love jenson, being as i have supported him for years

quit the bickering and i'm 17 matey
i liked f1 for 11 years
i've supported Eddie Iervine
Jenson Button
& Kimi Raikkonen
and thats it

[al4x]

Ooh how did I miss all this?

Although I'd like to see a clean season this year I would like to see mclaren become mercedes but I don't thinnk this case reopening will acheive that

I truely hope mclaren have a clean car this year but I also thought the punishment was fair last year and it saved alot of hassle that a Ferrari driver won it.

I suppose I can see AKRs point cause of supporting a team like I support Renault, i think i actually prefer reading those posts to the mclaren supporters ones! It just seems to be the same stuff

[AKR]

You are 17 Mr Snuggles. How can you be a lot older than us. I am 23 and Bud said he was 27. I think McLaren Fan would be in his 20s or 30s. Either way it doesn't matter but when you said you were a lot older it makes no sense.

Bud I wasn't aware of the Toyota thing but in the end it was insignificant as they gained nothing from Ferrari to be able to win so Ferrari probably let it slide. It cost money to take someone to court you know. McLaren did use the information. There were emails between Alonso and De La Rosa clearly them using it in their simulators and trying it out on McLaren. What more is needed? They tried it, used and took what they wanted and what worked best for them gaining some advantages they would otherwise not have gained. Small or big it doesn't matter. Every little advantage counts. And you Mr didn't answer my question from before. Are you English and came to Australia or are you Australian?

[AKR]

Alx4 wrote : Although I'd like to see a clean season this year I would like to see mclaren become mercedes but I don't thinnk this case reopening will acheive that

I agree. That is what I want to see as well.

Alx4 wrote : I suppose I can see AKRs point cause of supporting a team like I support Renault, i think i actually prefer reading those posts to the mclaren supporters ones! It just seems to be the same stuff

Many, many, many thankyous to you. Hvala Lijepa, Muchas Gracias, Molto Grazie. I blow you a kiss for my appreciation.

[bud]

AKR you do not know what McLaren was even accused of you just jumped on the "they had a ferrari info" bandwagon and cried foul!!
As McLaren NEVER tested anything int he simulators thats a fact i have the transcripts in PDF if youd like a copy?!
The emails only contained talk that Alonso and Pedro new of Coughlans relationship with Stepney...
There was never any direct evidence that McLaren used the data. Same as with Renault! Period!

And NO Ferrari did take Toyota to court they didnt go crying to the FIA and the media though. So Ferrari have double sporting standards is what youre saying? how can they act so just and right in taking McLaren to the FIA and yet not act in the same manner over the same situation with Toyota? answer is simple they wanted to gain something out of the Stepney case they wanted to win in the court room! this all came about after McLaren were dominating the Monaco and the 2 North american races Ferrari were scared the season was slipping away at that stage!

[AKR]

Bud Wrote : As McLaren NEVER tested anything int he simulators thats a fact i have the transcripts in PDF if youd like a copy?!

Send them over. My email is [email protected]
Thanks

[al4x]

Thanks AKR

yeah its nice to have a more objective view, tho im still biased

Of course everyone cheats a little, its not just a board game, its just that mclaren got caught with some heavy cheating Renault not so much

let mercedes take over mclaren with a clean car, renault get a new paint job and win with fernando, and go racing!

[Denthúl]

And Honda magically jump to the front of the field, of course! :p

[bud]

Thanks AKR

yeah its nice to have a more objective view, tho im still biased

Of course everyone cheats a little, its not just a board game, its just that mclaren got caught with some heavy cheating Renault not so much

let mercedes take over mclaren with a clean car, renault get a new paint job and win with fernando, and go racing!

all your ideas wreak!

[McLaren Fan]

Bud I wasn't aware of the Toyota thing but in the end it was insignificant as they gained nothing from Ferrari to be able to win so Ferrari probably let it slide. It cost money to take someone to court you know. McLaren did use the information. There were emails between Alonso and De La Rosa clearly them using it in their simulators and trying it out on McLaren. What more is needed? They tried it, used and took what they wanted and what worked best for them gaining some advantages they would otherwise not have gained. Small or big it doesn't matter. Every little advantage counts. And you Mr didn't answer my question from before. Are you English and came to Australia or are you Australian?

It was not proven that McLaren benefited from Ferrari in 2007. You say every little piece of information counts, so do you honestly believe that Toyota did not benefit slightly from the Ferrari data they stole? I can see more flaws in your post, but I'm short on time, so cannot reply about them now.