FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[Mr.Snuggles]

I agree with you mooker, to be honest with you how can we trust them again?
if anything there wins could be classed as Ferrari's win?
this season i am obviously rooting for Jenson to get in the top 10 of the championship
but the driver i want to win the championship has to be Kimi Or Massa
they are the dominant team thi season
i really want Heidfeld to win this season to
he's an amazing driver

[Denthúl]

I think that, to say McLaren should be removed from Formula 1 for cheating is unfair. Remember that it wasn't proven to be a whole team act - there were just a number of people within the team, including some drivers, that were cheating. If it had been ordered by the person in charge of the team, then I would consider it an offence worth removing the team from the sport for. But what you have to remember is that Renault were also caught doing the same thing as McLaren but were not penalised in any way. Unfair? I think so.

Anyway, cheating in some form has always been a part of Formula 1. And by your logic, of all cheaters should be taken out of F1, then McLaren, Ferrari, Benetton, Renault, BAR and many others from the past should all have been removed from the sport. And thus, we wouldn't have that much left to watch, would we? I agree with penalising cheaters, but all cheaters should be penalised. They should only be thrown out if it's something very serious. Remember that teams have been copying other teams' cars for ages. Anyway, this is kind of off-topic, so I'll shut up now...

[Mr.Snuggles]

yes totally fair to be honest with you
and my two favourite drivers do drive for my favourite team
Jenson & Honda
Kimi & Ferrari
and Mclaren do not deserve the be let into the championship thsi season
i'm glad Ferrari are taking this further

[Denthúl]

By that logic, neither do Renault. Nor Super Aguri and Toro Rosso, seeing as they don't design their own cars, which is against the rules...

They admitted they did wrong, they were penalised multiple times and they offered to halt development on their car so as not to include Ferrari material. I'd say that is enough, especially when you consider that most of the key players in the scandal are no longer involved with McLaren (the exception to that being Pedro de la Rosa...).

[Mr.Snuggles]

yes i agree with you there
but when you look at like that
if you were the ferrari designer
worked you butt of to make a championship car
some1 steals it?
whats that all about
you get paid to that
and someone steals all of it from you
you would be pretty p*ssed!!!
i just disagree with what has happened
and i see your point of view
but at the end of the day
if you let 1 person get away with it
then i guess everyone should cheat then?

[Denthúl]

Whilst I think it noble of you to defend Ferrari in such a way, seeing as they were the victim in this case, I think you're missing a certain point. No top team in F1 (and indeed, probably no team at all) is without sin. Over the years, teams have been cheating in some way or another, whether it is by copying other teams' parts, using illegal parts/systems or just using dirty on-track tactics. Ferrari have done just as much as McLaren, so you can not go about pretending they're all nice and innocent. Sure, in this case, it was McLaren (or rather, part of McLaren) at fault, but in many other cases it will have been reversed. There has always been a strong rivalry between them and both sides have resorted to cheating and dirty tactics. They're just as bad as each other.

If we were to kick out all cheaters, we'd be left with maybe four or six cars on the grid. And none of them would be silver or red.

[McLaren Fan]

Whilst I think it noble of you to defend Ferrari in such a way, seeing as they were the victim in this case, I think you're missing a certain point. No top team in F1 (and indeed, probably no team at all) is without sin. Over the years, teams have been cheating in some way or another, whether it is by copying other teams' parts, using illegal parts/systems or just using dirty on-track tactics. Ferrari have done just as much as McLaren, so you can not go about pretending they're all nice and innocent. Sure, in this case, it was McLaren (or rather, part of McLaren) at fault, but in many other cases it will have been reversed. There has always been a strong rivalry between them and both sides have resorted to cheating and dirty tactics. They're just as bad as each other.

If we were to kick out all cheaters, we'd be left with maybe four or six cars on the grid. And none of them would be silver or red.

One of the funniest incidents came last season when Mika Salo came out and said that Ferrari listened in to McLaren radio conversations in the 1999 season. A few weeks later, Todt declares to the press he thinks McLaren are a disgrace because Raikkonen was listening in to Ferrari radio conversations when he was at McLaren! Maybe Ferrari would like to explain their breaches of rules in 1999 season, and just last year when tried to pull a fast one and change tyres at the Japanese Grand Prix (?). Ferrari are in no position to be accusing anybody of anything.

[AKR]

Where has Ferarri cheated and gotten away with it. This is a fantasy dream world created by McLaren cry babies. Schumacher a cheat? Please you can do better. Schumacher tried to cheat in 1997 by taking Villeneuve off and he got caught. Good, I agree with the verdict. Proove I am a liar and was really pissed off about it when it happened if you can. I doubt you can. And then this isn't Ferrari trying to cheat, it was Schumi taking matters into his own hands. Ferrari team boss didn't tell him to try and run Villenouve off. It is obsurd. They could of gotten killed. It's not a game you know. And then there is also something else that happened back then in that race. Just can't wait for McLaren supporters to deny this one. Apparently in that race when Schumi had a good lead, Williams radioed into the McLaren team and told Hakkinnen who was a lap down to hold up Schumi as he came to lap him. This hold up was to allow Villenouve to catch up. Schumi couldn't afford this as his tyres were wearing out. It helped Villenouve gain time on Schumi and in the end a lot earlier before the end meaning Schumi had little chance to hold hid lead until the end. Ferrari probably chose to let this slide as the penalty Schumi got for taking Villenouve off was very light and thought wise to leave it at that. Smart move I guess, but here is another example of McLaren involved in some form of cheating, this time in calaboration with another team (Williams). And yes the event did happen. I was old enough to watch the 1997 season as it happened and remember it well. And Schumacher and his alleged cheating in 1994 when he won, well if he did he wasn't at Ferrari so that cannot count as Ferrari cheating now can it.

Maybe I should be like McLaren Fan and have a sore looser footer that looks like this, (Starting from 1980)

Ferrari champions 1983, 1990, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007.

ummm no thanks.... I can accept losing even when it is close and even when it hurts a lot. Making up records is just childish and an insult to rival team.

I'll just keep it like this Ferrari champions, 1983, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2007.

[McLaren Fan]

Ferrari champions 1983, 1990, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007.

The events of 1990 and 1997 would not have affected Ferrari's place in the constructors' championship, so I don't know what you've been on.

And Schumacher and his alleged cheating in 1994 when he won, well if he did he wasn't at Ferrari so that cannot count as Ferrari cheating now can it.

Alleged? It was as clear as the difference between day and night.

Where has Ferarri cheated and gotten away with it.

I would answer that, but I'm going out soon.

nd then there is also something else that happened back then in that race. Just can't wait for McLaren supporters to deny this one. Apparently in that race when Schumi had a good lead, Williams radioed into the McLaren team and told Hakkinnen who was a lap down to hold up Schumi as he came to lap him. This hold up was to allow Villenouve to catch up. Schumi couldn't afford this as his tyres were wearing out. It helped Villenouve gain time on Schumi and in the end a lot earlier before the end meaning Schumi had little chance to hold hid lead until the end. Ferrari probably chose to let this slide as the penalty Schumi got for taking Villenouve off was very light and thought wise to leave it at that. Smart move I guess, but here is another example of McLaren involved in some form of cheating, this time in calaboration with another team (Williams). And yes the event did happen. I was old enough to watch the 1997 season as it happened and remember it well.

Sounds good, but it was entirely legal, for team orders were allowed back then. The difference between Ferrari and the other teams in Formula One is that the latter operate within the rules, Ferrari go beyond them. That, my friend, is cheating.

[mooker]

I agree with you mooker, to be honest with you how can we trust them again?
if anything there wins could be classed as Ferrari's win?
this season i am obviously rooting for Jenson to get in the top 10 of the championship
but the driver i want to win the championship has to be Kimi Or Massa
they are the dominant team thi season
i really want Heidfeld to win this season to
he's an amazing driver

Please do NOT say you agree with me when you're writing utter dross!

[AKR]

McLaren Fan wrote : Sounds good, but it was entirely legal, for team orders were allowed back then. The difference between Ferrari and the other teams in Formula One is that the latter operate within the rules, Ferrari go beyond them. That, my friend, is cheating.

Umm excuse me McLaren Fan but team orders means exactly that. Team orders from the same team. Team orders to a DIFFERENT TEAM IS CLEARLY NOT ALLOWED! Villenouve was at Williams, Hakkinnen at McLaren. That is plain cheating and illegal.

And as for the rest of your commentary about Ferrari chearting is laughtable. In 1999 and the Malayasian GP. Ferrari didn't cheat. Rubbish! Someone with money probably paid the Stewards to disqualify the 2 Ferraris that came first and second which was so much bullpoo that when Ferrari appealed it, it was reversed. I remember this incident as well. The Italian media certainily agrees with it, and what you going to say the Italian media lies just because the British media said the opposite (if they even did. Sorry couldn't speak English or much of it in 1999 to confirm this). Camon now McLaren Fan. We won in 1999 just as Hakkinnen for McLaren won the drivers championship fair and sqaure. Can't you just admit it and give credit to Ferrari when it is deserved. I give credit to McLaren even though it hurts so much when they win. I am starting to believe you are worse McLaren tifoso than I am a Ferrari tifosa. Tifosi usully have no sportsmanship. You clearly show none by denying all or most of Ferrari's wins as illegit. I at least acknowledge McLaren's wins even though it kills me each time. At least I have some sportsmanship.

[mooker]

Umm excuse me McLaren Fan but team orders means exactly that. Team orders from the same team. Team orders to a DIFFERENT TEAM IS CLEARLY NOT ALLOWED! Villenouve was at Williams, Hakkinnen at McLaren. That is plain cheating and illegal.

And as for the rest of your commentary about Ferrari chearting is laughtable. In 1999 and the Malayasian GP. Ferrari didn't cheat. Rubbish! Someone with money probably paid the Stewards to disqualify the 2 Ferraris that came first and second which was so much bullpoo that when Ferrari appealed it, it was reversed. I remember this incident as well. The Italian media certainily agrees with it, and what you going to say the Italian media lies just because the British media said the opposite (if they even did. Sorry couldn't speak English or much of it in 1999 to confirm this). Camon now McLaren Fan. We won in 1999 just as Hakkinnen for McLaren won the drivers championship fair and sqaure. Can't you just admit it and give credit to Ferrari when it is deserved. I give credit to McLaren even though it hurts so much when they win. I am starting to believe you are worse McLaren tifoso than I am a Ferrari tifosa. Tifosi usully have no sportsmanship. You clearly show none by denying all or most of Ferrari's wins as illegit. I at least acknowledge McLaren's wins even though it kills me each time. At least I have some sportsmanship.

Jeebus AKR, open your eyes! Ferwari don't cheat????? Yeah, and the pope is Jewish. Barge boards, illegal floors, flexible aerodynamics, parking cars on race tracks, running people off the track...

There's no denying that what happened at McL last year wasn't good, but if you think you support a team of angels is beyond belief. This why I call the Tifosi a bunch of hypocrites.

[bud]

Umm excuse me McLaren Fan but team orders means exactly that. Team orders from the same team. Team orders to a DIFFERENT TEAM IS CLEARLY NOT ALLOWED! Villenouve was at Williams, Hakkinnen at McLaren. That is plain cheating and illegal.

Excuse me but how many times have we seen SAUBER help out Ferrari????

Even in that race Todt forced the Sauber driver Noberto Fontana to hold up Villenueve

[AKR]

Bud wrote : Excuse me but how many times have we seen SAUBER help out Ferrari????

Even in that race Todt forced the Sauber driver Noberto Fontana to hold up Villenueve

That is strange. The Italian media never mentioned that back in 1997. In the end Bud I do not dispute Villenouve's title. He won it, and he did so fair and square. Just like Ferrari did in 2007.

[Denthúl]

Umm excuse me McLaren Fan but team orders means exactly that. Team orders from the same team. Team orders to a DIFFERENT TEAM IS CLEARLY NOT ALLOWED! Villenouve was at Williams, Hakkinnen at McLaren. That is plain cheating and illegal.

Excuse me but how many times have we seen SAUBER help out Ferrari????

Even in that race Todt forced the Sauber driver Noberto Fontana to hold up Villenueve

Something to do with the following, perhaps?

Sauber used Ferrari designed engines (from 1997 to 2005) and gearboxes built by Sauber Petronas Engineering, a company founded for the sole purpose of building these engines, that were nearly identical to the ones used by Ferrari. Sauber licenced nearly every legally licensable part from Ferrari and even had several Ferrari engineers on staff. Many pointed out suspicious similarities between Ferrari and Sauber chassis, but no formal accusations were ever made (FIA rules require each team to design their own chassis).

It would certainly add some kind of explanation. That last part there also adds weight to my point on Red Bull, Toro Rosso and Super Aguri...

In addition, there is the following:

Collusion allegations

On November 8, The Times newspaper published an article accusing Williams and McLaren of colluding to decide the finishing order at the end of the Grand Prix. The article's claims were based on recordings of the radio transmissions made by the two teams. The FIA World Council rejected the claims when the matter was brought before them. FIA president Max Mosley stated "It is quite clear that the result of the race was not fixed. There was no arrangement between McLaren and Williams that Mika Häkkinen was going to win. They were able to demonstrate very clearly that was not the case."

In 2006, Norberto Fontana claimed in an interview with the Argentinian Magazine Ol?[14] that a few hours before the Grand Prix the Ferrari team director Jean Todt visited the Sauber motorhome and told the Swiss team, which used Ferrari engines at the time, that the Saubers must block Jacques Villeneuve if they were in a position to do so in order to help Michael Schumacher win the World Championship.

The Sauber team owner and manager at the time, Peter Sauber has however denied these allegations and said "Ferrari never expressed the desire that we should obstruct an opponent of Schumacher on the track".

So they were all at fault, to be honest. And finally, I found this rather funny.

Murray Walker: "A case of champagne from Ferrari to Sauber for Norberto Fontana. Because the Argentinian newcomer, up from Formula Three, really, really, helped Michael Schumacher on his way there"
Martin Brundle: "What engines have they got in that Sauber, Murray? Isn't it a Ferrari?"
Murray Walker: "Well it is, yes. Martin, you are a cynical chap"

I like Brundle.