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[What's Burning?]

If anyone hadn't noticed, the regulations still weight the sport 90/10 aero/engine.

Is there something to the fact that suppliers don't tell their customers everything? Is there a reason why Kimi hasn't had to retire with alternator problems while Vettel has retired twice?

[Hammer278]

It was a similar risk for MS when he left Benetton for Ferrari. And we found out that a grandee team with a massive pedigree and history to resurrect have the incentive to buy their way to the front

As Alonso says only Lewis can do what MS did for Ferrari - drive the team to the front by winning when the car is not fastest,

Alonso confirmed: "I have said he is the only one capable of winning without having the best car. The others win if the car is good, and when it is not (good), they do not (win)."

this galvanises the staff and allows them to to concentrate their efforts on giving Lewis what he needs - If MS was the driver he was before Merc would have improved a lot more

If Nico has won one race this year vs 3 for Lewis in the best car, I would argue that Lewis in the Merc this year would have won 2 races with Nico also winning 2 at McLaren.

And to those saying that Merc have not done much so far, well what they have done is stealthy build posibly the best collection of aero guys and engineers. So they can only improve providing Merc open the tap on endless funds, and with the best driver on the grid as figurehead they cannot afford not to

McLaren might have Merc engines now at the tail end of their engine deal which undoubtedly came with lots of extras FI dont have, come 2014 it will be a different ballgame

I would even bet that Merc could decide not to supply customers with the new engine or supply them with a version that requires lots of bells and whistles that only they keep to themselves.
The least of this will be assistance in helping teams integrate the engine on different chassis

Last but not least, Mercs chassis guys already have the dimensions etc of the new engine, non of the customers will get this info for another year or so, I doubt Merc will not derive a massive advantage from this

So Lewis doesnt challenge for a couple of years, he will have a break clause in the contract, post McLaren Alonso at Renault for 2 years didnt seem to consign him to the back of the grid for the rest of his career

i'm just musing

Agreed. They tried their 'comeback superstar' which was Michael and that flunked miserably. Time to get a current superstar and build themselves from there, in Lewis they have the fastest and arguably best driver on the grid. It would be awesome to see Lewis in the position he deserves...leading a team on and off track, instead of having to contend with a manager who's steadfast about giving more attention to a pain in the a*se teammate who competes more with his mouth than his driving.

[darwin dali]

If anyone hadn't noticed, the regulations still weight the sport 90/10 aero/engine.

Is there something to the fact that suppliers don't tell their customers everything? Is there a reason why Kimi hasn't had to retire with alternator problems while Vettel has retired twice?

Red Bull is the de facto Renault works team though, not Lotus.

[What's Burning?]

If anyone hadn't noticed, the regulations still weight the sport 90/10 aero/engine.

Is there something to the fact that suppliers don't tell their customers everything? Is there a reason why Kimi hasn't had to retire with alternator problems while Vettel has retired twice?

Red Bull is the de facto Renault works team though, not Lotus.

Oh what a tangled web we weave. Then that answers the question as to whether a "works" team has any benefit over their customer engined team.

[Jabberwocky]

Or they are an evolution ahead on parts, and not as reliable.

[scotty]

Is there a reason why Kimi hasn't had to retire with alternator problems while Vettel has retired twice?

Probably just the way the car was set up for cooling, then perhaps also an external factor such as running in the hot air of another car. Some drivers are harder on parts than others too, although i am not sure this would affect an alternator as greatly as say a gearbox or an engine.

[What's Burning?]

Is there a reason why Kimi hasn't had to retire with alternator problems while Vettel has retired twice?

Probably just the way the car was set up for cooling, then perhaps also an external factor such as running in the hot air of another car. Some drivers are harder on parts than others too, although i am not sure this would affect an alternator as greatly as say a gearbox or an engine.

I've got no skin in the Renault/Red Bull/Lotus menage a trois. Just questioning the validity of a meaningful "real" advantage to an engine manufacturer since the regulations so heavily favor aero design.

Or they are an evolution ahead on parts, and not as reliable.

Maybe the alternator is made by infinity?

[vaptin]

It seems unlikely the FIA will allow customer engine teams to be so heavily discriminated against.

[CookinFlat6]

Merc will be designing their car around the new engine many moons before the customers even get a sniff at its dimensions

Aero might be where most of the gains come from these days of frozen engines, but new engines can be unreliable, and a car with good aero wont get far with a blown engine.

anyway merc have snapped up top guys from other teams like bob bell, aldo costa, geoff willis, what have mclaren done? lose top guys

If Red Bull, despite 'works' status is seeing alternator failure possibly due to overheating because the fit of the engine etc is too tightly packed then think of what type of advantage a manufacturer will have over a customer who will have to adapt their car design philosophy to suit the enginne

One could say, for the first few years post 2014, the engine and its seamless fit with the car will be more important than aero (are you listening Adrian)

[What's Burning?]

Merc will be designing their car around the new engine many moons before the customers even get a sniff at its dimensions

How do you know this? No customer team that's going to pay money for a product would do it blindly, there would be a contractual sharing of information, any and all information before the first engine is ever built. We're not talking about a shopping cart on Amazon with customer reviews for a microwave oven. There are deep bidirectional contracts negotiated in these kinds of sales.

I have to derail the Lewis thread with this, but its a valid topic that maybe we should move over the the new engine requirments thread.

[Nin-Chin]

If Lewis is to leave I want him to Ferrari to harass Alonso

[Nin-Chin]

http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/new ... -Mercedes-

[scotty]

I've got no skin in the Renault/Red Bull/Lotus menage a trois. Just questioning the validity of a meaningful "real" advantage to an engine manufacturer since the regulations so heavily favor aero design.

It is indeed debatable. I mean as it is now, that the customer teams get exactly the same spec engine as the factory teams do. I guess the question is, will the factory team get engine evolutions and so on before the other teams? That was the case in the past, but i am not so sure it is as big a factor these days, because it is so competitive and the suppliers surely won't want bad publicity from the teams potentially blaming old engine evolutions for them being slow at a given circuit. We certainly haven't heard of this situation since the V8's started in 2006 which therefore tends to support that theory. There is no real reason why a huge disparity (say 15-20hp) between customer and factory engines would suddenly appear in 2014 either, when one isn't present at the moment.

Any performance gain from knowing the engine dimensions early can easily be negated. Look at Brawn, that Mercedes engine was completely bodged into that car at the last minute and it won both titles and 8 races in the following season.

The real question is (somewhat obviously) who out of Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault will have the best engine, and just as importantly, which teams will have the best KERS systems. Although even this will only come into play at certain tracks like Spa and Monza, the cars with the most downforce will generally be quickest everywhere else.

[andrew]

Or they are an evolution ahead on parts, and not as reliable.

Perhaps part of the engine deal is that teams are given a choice of some components.

[Jabberwocky]

Or they are an evolution ahead on parts, and not as reliable.

Perhaps part of the engine deal is that teams are given a choice of some components.

Maybe one team has to use one out of a Lotus Elan, and the other it is made out of old redbull cans