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User avatar
By racechick
#32034
Ferrari are beginning their destabalising of McLaren programme early this season. In a similar vein to the Italian police sweep around the McLaren garage at...Monza was it? during preparation for the race; this time they go a step further and call key McLaren people to Itlay. including Ron Dennis, just a couple of weeks before the season begins to be questioned about the spying allegations. When will Ferrari try to win on merit!! They must be less confident about this season than they appear :roll:
User avatar
By AKR
#32036
I read about this earlier today. Was going to post a thread but you bet me to it racechick. This is what I think of it. Ron Dennis is a criminal. Stealling is an offence. Put him in JAIL where he belongs. This is my opinion on the matter as I do not like criminals, especially theives so please don't take it personally against me as it isn't my usual Tifosa attitude that makes me feel this way over the matter.
User avatar
By bud
#32038
Ron and others are only giving evidence as far as i can see, no criminal actions against them. Timing wise its not that big a deal i dont think. but yeah the timing of the crap in Monza just before qualifying was typical Italian bullpoo!

haha AKR yeah Ron Dennis went into Marenello and stole the dossier personally did he!? If you dont like him thats fair enough but to accuse him of being a criminal is petty!!!!
The only person who will be in trouble for stealing would be Nigel Stepney(Ferrari employee) and Coughlan for accepting unauthorised intellectual property.
By mooker
#32043
What exactly are Ferrari trying to achieve from continuing this nonsense? They had their WCC gifted to them last year, their main rivals got stripped of their primary income and shoved down the wrong end of the pits. Its cringe-worthy to see Ferrari being such bad winners.
User avatar
By Mr.Snuggles
#32044
that came as a major shock to me?
i thought they would of left it at that?
but obviously not
they most probably want more money?
because i got told that Mclaren still have the documents?
User avatar
By Martin
#32046
There is another aspect to all this. Again, Ferrari in particular, are ignoring the fans in their pursuit of (whether AKR likes it or not) a very popular team. It is dividing the supporters like no other incident in F1 that I can remember. The hard core Ferrari supporters will stick together and regard anyone to do with McL as criminals, but, by and large, other F1 supporters will turn against Ferrari, as this forum shows, so, from a PR point of view, this is a bad move for Ferrari.
However, to disregard the fans opinions is typical of F1 in general, but of Ferrari in particular and more so of Jean Todt.
Part of the reason for the arrogant behavior of Ferrari is borne out of the fact that the prime sponsor is its owner - Fiat. They do not have to justify themselves to sponsors in the way that other teams do.
Ferrari does not deserve to win anything this year, it has a long history of off the track dirty tricks, this is just another. I re- state that McL did deserve a penalty in the 'spy' scandal, but so did Ferrari who provided the data to McL, and so did Renault later, but we come back again to the corrupt, Ferrari dominated FIA.
Companies only sponsor F1 teams because of the perceived commercial benefits, those benefits come from us - the fans, without fans F1 is worthless, lets make our views felt with the sponsors. Lets make a noise at Fiat and complain about the behavior of its daughter company.
User avatar
By Mr.Snuggles
#32062
I agree with what ferrari are doing
Mclaren do not deserve to be in this season!!!!
that title was rightfully Ferrari's and rightfully the Iceman's
Lewis was racing on a car that was based on lies and decete
and they was going to start this season on the same verge?
imagine what would of happened if anyone didn't say anything to them?
Ferrari should take them to thew cleaners and they should be banned from next season!!!
its a disgrace to F1!!!
User avatar
By AKR
#32070
Well said Mr Snuggles and I love your footer as well. :) I just cannot believe how much McLaren supporters will defend their team cheating as it never happened and that Ferrari basically fabricated the whole thing. This is what it feels like. We won, why can't McLaren fans accept it. I am so sick of all this. Cheaters should be punished. In all sports it is like this. If you are an athlete for example and take drugs and get caught you will get banned for years. What difference has McLaren done? They are lucky they only got penalised in 2007 and not excluded from 2008 because the reality is they should of. McLaren fans should just be thankful that was all they got and hope they can do better in 2008 and perhaps try and clear their name. Ferrari if they have the best car this year then they deserve to win. If McLaren can better that without cheating then good luck to them. I would prefer that another team like Honda improve, or BMW-Sauber, or Williams, or Renault for that matter as well. All those teams are great and deserve a shot, and at least I can say they are all honest and deserve to win as well if they can make a better car then the currently number 1 team Ferrari. Don't get me wrong, it would be boring to always see Ferrari win so this is why it was good when Alonso in 2005 and 2006 broke Ferrari's winning streak. Maybe would be good to see Jensen Button win for Honda or Kubica win for BMW-Sauber. All in all as long as they do not cheat, it will be welcomed by myself anytime. Cheaters are just pathetic and in a way cowards.
User avatar
By Denthúl
#32074
^ Um...remember that Renault were caught cheating as well? And then there's the case of customer cars, which aren't allowed, thus preventing Prodrive from entering the championship...but I can see three cars on the grid which class as customer cars...

Like I've said in at least one other post here, the majority of top teams over time have cheated and used dirty tactics, and that includes Ferrari. I'm not saying that McLaren are any better, but both teams have done it and you have to look at it from both sides. You can not just judge on recent events, because that would be unfair - looking at the whole picture, both teams have cheated several times in some way or another. In some cases it's small, others big. But I'd say it would be a pretty safe bet that no team on the grid has never resorted to cheating. Some may not have been caught, but that doesn't mean they haven't done it ;)
User avatar
By McLaren Fan
#32075
^ Um...remember that Renault were caught cheating as well? And then there's the case of customer cars, which aren't allowed, thus preventing Prodrive from entering the championship...but I can see three cars on the grid which class as customer cars...

Like I've said in at least one other post here, the majority of top teams over time have cheated and used dirty tactics, and that includes Ferrari. I'm not saying that McLaren are any better, but both teams have done it and you have to look at it from both sides. You can not just judge on recent events, because that would be unfair - looking at the whole picture, both teams have cheated several times in some way or another. In some cases it's small, others big. But I'd say it would be a pretty safe bet that no team on the grid has never resorted to cheating. Some may not have been caught, but that doesn't mean they haven't done it ;)

AKR and Mr.Snuggles represent the forum's new "skoolz out" contingent. They are set in their ways, so you're best ignoring them and commenting on the serious posts.

As you say, Ferrari are the past masters of cheating and the FIA have allowed them free reign to do so, as well as aiding and abetting them. I wonder how much information Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne brought with them from Benetton to Ferrari. I wonder.
User avatar
By AKR
#32081
McLaren Fan wrote : AKR and Mr.Snuggles represent the forum's new "skoolz out" contingent. They are set in their ways, so you're best ignoring them and commenting on the serious posts.



I finished school ages ago so your lack of valid response to McLaren not cheating is laughable. And as for Mr Snuggles, please don't go attacking him ok. All he made was a valid point. Some of which agreed with your point McLaren Cheat oops I meant McLaren Fan and some of the others who i certainily do not agree with. He likes Jensen Button and of the current top runners he likes Ferrari drivers. He is allowed to just like the rest of us support whoever we like. You could however have some support for Jensen as afterall he is your country man is he not? (And a great driver as well for that matter).
User avatar
By McLaren Fan
#32083
McLaren Fan wrote : AKR and Mr.Snuggles represent the forum's new "skoolz out" contingent. They are set in their ways, so you're best ignoring them and commenting on the serious posts.



I finished school ages ago so your lack of valid response to McLaren not cheating is laughable. And as for Mr Snuggles, please don't go attacking him ok. All he made was a valid point. Some of which agreed with your point McLaren Cheat oops I meant McLaren Fan and some of the others who i certainily do not agree with. He likes Jensen Button and of the current top runners he likes Ferrari drivers. He is allowed to just like the rest of us support whoever we like. You could however have some support for Jensen as afterall he is your country man is he not? (And a great driver as well for that matter).

He can support whoever he likes, whenever likes. This is not some communist forum. My point is that both of your posts are nonsensical and, in Mr.Snuggle's case, a way of jacking up the number of posts he has.
User avatar
By Denthúl
#32084
You still have to admit, though, it's rather biased. The pair of you seem intent only on having McLaren removed, when there are clearly several other teams breaking the rules. I'm not singling out any team, and I'm not saying McLaren are innocent. I'm just pointing out that they aren't the only ones who are guilty... ;)
User avatar
By AKR
#32087
McLaren Fan wrote : He can support whoever he likes, whenever likes. This is not some communist forum. My point is that both of your posts are nonsensical and, in Mr.Snuggle's case, a way of jacking up the number of posts he has.



Kiki laughs, Dear McLaren Fan nothing is more nonsensical as your footer, and the more you defend it as being the way it should of been, the more nonsensical and amusing it is. :lol:




Denthúl wrote : You still have to admit, though, it's rather biased. The pair of you seem intent only on having McLaren removed, when there are clearly several other teams breaking the rules. I'm not singling out any team, and I'm not saying McLaren are innocent. I'm just pointing out that they aren't the only ones who are guilty...




To condem someone you must have proof. Ferrari had clear evidence (from Alosno mainily) that McLaren cheated. If this evidence were not present, McLaren would of gotten off as well just like they did the first time. We all like to remember how Renault got off, but no one seems to care how McLaren got off the first time. How convenient? Tell me is this nonsensical as well McLaren Fan as well, just because you do not like it?
User avatar
By Martin
#32089
haha AKR yeah Ron Dennis went into Marenello and stole the dossier personally did he!? If you dont like him thats fair enough but to accuse him of being a criminal is petty!!!!
The only person who will be in trouble for stealing would be Nigel Stepney(Ferrari employee) and Coughlan for accepting unauthorised intellectual property.


Exactly right Bud, this subject is obviously going to rumble on for sometime yet, and maybe it should, it was a major incident for F1. However, can we please all get one thing straight. Whatever your opinion is on this subject the FACTS are, as Bud says here, that Stepney was the only person who stole anything. He stole data from his employer for his own ends. He passed that data to Coughlan and Coughlan then distributed this data to certain peole within McL. Exactly who had this data we shall never really know.
It was deemed that ,even though it was a few employees of McL who received this data ,and those people were not authoried, by McL, to receive it, it was still Mcls responsibility for the actions of its employees. Quite right to. However, if the company is responsible for the actions of its employees, then that applies to Ferrari also. On that basis Farrari gave the data to McL - it was NOT stolen by anyone at McL. McL should have been penalised, but so should Ferrari .
McL should not have been penalised for receiving the data, since it was freely given, but they should have been penalised for using it and for not returning it to its rightful owner as soon as poss.
Todt should have been sacked by Fiat for allowing such a monumental breech of security.
Renault should have had at least an equivalent penalty.

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