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#318303
Watching Formula One lately, I feel the FIA is doing too many things to keep cars running. That might seem like a weird statement, but I really think it's an issue. I think the record of having a full field of 22 cars finish the race hadn't been achieved until a few years ago. While more cars does mean opportunity for overtaking and it does reduce costs if cars do not get damaged in any way, it also means the smaller teams have issues scoring points. While smaller teams like Minardi managed to score points in some seasons a decade or so ago, current small teams don't really stand a chance. This while the field is the same size, but the amount of points-scoring positions has gone up from 6 to 8 to now 10. Even the more crazy races, with rain for instance, see the smaller teams finish around place 12 or 13 at best. I think this has happened due to a few things.

First of all, the FIA is penalizing drivers left and right for collisions to the point where I think they'd rather wait for a safe DRS zone pass with some KERS to boot than risk a collision. Sure it's no fun when your favorite gets taken out in a needless collision, but it's part of the sport and it should be allowed to happen from time to time without it always leading to grid-penalties. I think penalties should only be applied if it happens more often or seems on purpose.

Second, I think the engine and gearbox rules are bad. I know it's to reduce costs, but if your engine has to last 2 or 3 races, I think it means it's less likely to fail during a race. The teams keep checking their engines after each session and weekend and if they have doubts, they'll put in another. Instead of spectacular blow-ups, we get grid-penalties or sometimes not even that, because the team changed engines or gearboxes as a precaution. If an engine just has to work for 90 minutes and can run at the very edge of what it can handle, it might blow more often, meaning more retirements. On top of that blow-ups can be rather awesome. Just remember Fisichella's engine at Spa in 2002 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78kB7RL_6HQ). Though I will admit an engine going like Sato's did in Monaco (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vphJVgjYPI) was dangerous. Either way, mechanical failures during races has been taken out by them needing to last longer. They'll have more margin and have more opportunities to change the part before it does fail.

Third, the tracks. After Schumacher's leg-breaking crash in Silverstone, 1999, graveltraps have one by one been replaced by tarmac run-off areas. While this is safer and does allow drivers to rejoin, I feel it doesn't punish enough. Drivers don't get stuck (which, I must admit, was never a good way to retire), but also not respecting the track limits isn't punishing enough. Drivers hardly lose time going off-track, much less crash. At the Nürburgring they had water on the fake grass in the Mercedes arena last year, which punished the drivers for going over the limit, but I'm thinking a broad strip of grass or even a gravel trap before a large tarmac run-off area (for safety) would be much better, as it would punish drivers for going off-track much more, without compromising the safety, as the run-off area allowing for drivers to slow down or recover their car before hitting a wall will reduce the chance of injury because of crashing, as the run-off areas now already do. Rather than going into a corner too hot and just deciding to run wide a bit and hope you won't get a drive-through, I'd rather see the drivers having to save their car or at least lose time or even places. Now in quite a few cases it's faster to run off-track and only the white stripes and the promise the stewards will penalize you if you go over them keeps drivers from using that extra bit of unused tarmac.

So, what do you guys think?
#318308
Wait til the new engine regs, i think we'll see failures again then as the engine development race restarts (finally). Cause look at KERS now, that is still pretty early in the development phase and we see failures or problems pretty much every race. If a guy loses KERS under the next regs he'll be completely screwed, over 150hp short.

The main thing that saves the engines is the low rev limit, they are nowhere near to really stressing the engine. I think the rev limit was a cheap trick so that manufacturers didn't actually have to spend as much work making the engine reliable. You still see quite a lot of gearbox problems though (albeit not race ending usually).

But to answer the main point, i don't think retirements are 'needed' at the moment cause the racing is so good, you don't rely on them to mix things up these days. I would, however, like to see mistakes and going off track being properly punished again at ALL tracks, i fully agree on that. The drivers just take the piss now, ignoring track limits constantly.
#318312
Wait til the new engine regs, i think we'll see failures again then as the engine development race restarts (finally). Cause look at KERS now, that is still pretty early in the development phase and we see failures or problems pretty much every race. If a guy loses KERS under the next regs he'll be completely screwed, over 150hp short.

Is the electric pitlane still happening?

The main thing that saves the engines is the low rev limit, they are nowhere near to really stressing the engine. I think the rev limit was a cheap trick so that manufacturers didn't actually have to spend as much work making the engine reliable. You still see quite a lot of gearbox problems though (albeit not race ending usually).

Never liked the rev limiting rules, I don't see the point in having that and the limited number of engines per season. I say limit the number of engines per season and if the teams can't manage the longevity then tough.

But to answer the main point, i don't think retirements are 'needed' at the moment cause the racing is so good, you don't rely on them to mix things up these days. I would, however, like to see mistakes and going off track being properly punished again at ALL tracks, i fully agree on that. The drivers just take the piss now, ignoring track limits constantly.

Agree, I'd prefer more of something like fake grass strips seperating the tarmac run offs from the track and having to navigate some speed bumps to rejoin. Something that won't take them out of the race but will be a bit of a penalty.
#318315
Wait til the new engine regs, i think we'll see failures again then as the engine development race restarts (finally). Cause look at KERS now, that is still pretty early in the development phase and we see failures or problems pretty much every race. If a guy loses KERS under the next regs he'll be completely screwed, over 150hp short.

The main thing that saves the engines is the low rev limit, they are nowhere near to really stressing the engine. I think the rev limit was a cheap trick so that manufacturers didn't actually have to spend as much work making the engine reliable. You still see quite a lot of gearbox problems though (albeit not race ending usually).

But to answer the main point, i don't think retirements are 'needed' at the moment cause the racing is so good, you don't rely on them to mix things up these days. I would, however, like to see mistakes and going off track being properly punished again at ALL tracks, i fully agree on that. The drivers just take the piss now, ignoring track limits constantly.

While I do agree the rev limit has something to do with it, I do think we see a difference in engine performance between the different manufacturers, right? I always learned engines had a balance between reliability and performance. If a manufacturer enhanced the performance, it generally hurt the reliability, which they then had to work on. While it might have had to do with revs, I don't think that's the only area they can win performance or lose reliability? I do think the fact they have a limited amount of engines means they have bigger margins and more opportunities to swap engines when they look like they might fail. Actually, later in a season you tend to hear they go back to older engines where they've replaced some part they're allowed to touch so it can run again.
#318321
I don't think it's a problem at all.

Let's ask ayrton senna how he feels about punishing drivers for going off track.

Well, I was talking about having a small gravel trap, then plenty of tarmac run-off, meaning you can slow down your car as you can now and even recover from spins and such, meaning you either have a small shunt, or none at all, but at least can't run wide and gain time/not lose time.
#318331
Is the electric pitlane still happening?


AFAIK, yes. I have no problem with that really, having heard how the Toyota TS030 handles it... :thumbup:

8 speed boxes too, forgot about that!

While I do agree the rev limit has something to do with it, I do think we see a difference in engine performance between the different manufacturers, right? I always learned engines had a balance between reliability and performance. If a manufacturer enhanced the performance, it generally hurt the reliability, which they then had to work on. While it might have had to do with revs, I don't think that's the only area they can win performance or lose reliability? I do think the fact they have a limited amount of engines means they have bigger margins and more opportunities to swap engines when they look like they might fail. Actually, later in a season you tend to hear they go back to older engines where they've replaced some part they're allowed to touch so it can run again.


Personally, i don't think there is much between the Ferrari, Merc and Renault any more, that is a bit of a myth. Any difference in performance is so negligible it is completely dominated by aerodynamics, as proved with some of Vettel's wins last year (plus many more examples). The Cosworth is a poor engine though. But all this will change come 2014, i think we will see the engine becoming far more important, which is a good thing in my view - the engine is the beating heart of any car!

I don't think there has to be a trade off between reliability and performance at these standards. Back in the 90's the Renault V10 was the best engine in every single area generally. Same for Ferrari in the early 00's...

I don't think it's a problem at all.

Let's ask ayrton senna how he feels about punishing drivers for going off track.


If you're talking about Imola '94, that was a tarmac run off with a solid concrete wall meters from a 190 mph corner, hardly comparable... i think everyone is just saying, have more gravel traps and stuff that actually slows or stops the drivers if they make small mistakes. I am sure they could cut a good balance if they could be arsed.
#318333
Senna was awesome on straights today, with Renault engine, but his downforce was nowhere... On the other hand, Ferrari and Mercedes have the power.
#318377
But to answer the main point, i don't think retirements are 'needed' at the moment cause the racing is so good, you don't rely on them to mix things up these days. I would, however, like to see mistakes and going off track being properly punished again at ALL tracks, i fully agree on that. The drivers just take the piss now, ignoring track limits constantly.


Agree entirely. :thumbup:
#318692
To answer the question, yes but this is how F1 has evolved with engines and gearboxes having to last several races. Then their is the discrimination aginst gravel traps which has lead to tarmac run off areas which don't punish the drivers.
#318720
To answer the question, yes but this is how F1 has evolved with engines and gearboxes having to last several races. Then their is the discrimination aginst gravel traps which has lead to tarmac run off areas which don't punish the drivers.

Well, the reason gravel traps have been removed is because cars generally just skip over them, hardly reducing speed, which causes danger. Especially since the idea of them was to catch cars and make them stuck before hitting the barrier, instead it would sometimes make them hit the barrier harder. However, they never fixed the issue of punishing a driver for going wide. A small gravel trap or at least some grass before the run-off would not reduce safety, but would punish the drivers for not respecting track limits, I feel.

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