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[spankyham]

 wrote:">F1 : Team ECU track spat & high stakes Formula 1 politics for Red Bull in Germany

Rumours were swirling in the paddock that tensions between two Formula One camps had swelled again amid suggestions it was McLaren, manufacturer of the units fitted to all the cars, who blew the whistle on Red Bull's questionable ECU engine maps.

Indeed, others sensed even more Formula 1's high stakes politics, was at play.

"That's the nature of Formula One," said Red Bull boss Christian Horner. "You are always going to get other teams who will speculate that you have done wrong."

Writing for Der Spiegel, correspondent Ralf Bach smelled an even bigger rat, with the pre-race engine control unit torque map controversy and Vettel's post race penalty all in the mix.

The conspiracy theory is that the FIA is clamping down on Red Bull amid the reigning constructor World Champions' refusal to agree new cost limit regulations.

Referring to Vettel's penalised pass on Jenson Button, Dr. Helmut Marko observed that, "normally, the race director would have sent an email that he should have let Button back past.

"Not this time," the Austrian said.

The post-race drive through penalty cost Vettel not only second place, but also third and fourth with a further loss of eight points in his title chase.

[spankyham]

Personally I was pleased that RB weren't penalised in Germany. It made the win a little better.

I also don't think that the FiA should change anything until next season.

In the long run there are two questions this poses to me. Red Bulls moral stance, it seems they have pushed the rules to the limit but into an area where teams and the FiA agreed should be off limits. Is Red Bull a team to stand by or ignore what might be termed a gentleman's agreement?

Secondly, IMO we are seeing how one-dimensional Newey's design is. The RB8 from the start of the season, showed that, on pure aero's it couldn't cut it. Some (me included) believe the RB7 at Silverstone (2011) showed the same thing. It was only since they found a way to get around the rules and go back to the "overrun exhaust blowing" that they've made the RB8 competitive. Unless Red Bull gets some fresh/new thinking driving their teams development they may continue to struggle for success. To all the RB fans, sorry in advance if you're offended, its just my opinion and not meant to upset, and, of course, you can console yourself with the thought that I've been wrong plenty of times in my life, ie I thought beta was better than VHS

[darwin dali]

Personally I was pleased that RB weren't penalised in Germany. It made the win a little better.

I also don't think that the FiA should change anything until next season.

In the long run there are two questions this poses to me. Red Bulls moral stance, it seems they have pushed the rules to the limit but into an area where teams and the FiA agreed should be off limits. Is Red Bull a team to stand by or ignore what might be termed a gentleman's agreement?

Secondly, IMO we are seeing how one-dimensional Newey's design is. The RB8 from the start of the season, showed that, on pure aero's it couldn't cut it. Some (me included) believe the RB7 at Silverstone (2011) showed the same thing. It was only since they found a way to get around the rules and go back to the "overrun exhaust blowing" that they've made the RB8 competitive. Unless Red Bull gets some fresh/new thinking driving their teams development they may continue to struggle for success. To all the RB fans, sorry in advance if you're offended, its just my opinion and not meant to upset, and, of course, you can console yourself with the thought that I've been wrong plenty of times in my life, ie I thought beta was better than VHS

I always thought Video 2000 (Philips and Grundig standard) was superior, which it was technologically, however, like with Microsoft's OS, the low quality VHS trumped the competition by shear market power

[Troyron]

Hi guys and gals, can anyone of you "specialists" tell me abit about what types of tracks the different cars do well at. And if you also would give me some inputs on why you think so, it would be great. This way I might actually learn something more about the technical side of F1. Lets say for the following cars;

* Ferrari
* McLaren
* Red Bull
* Mercedes
* Sauber
* Lotus

[stonemonkey]

Referring to Vettel's penalised pass on Jenson Button, Dr. Helmut Marko observed that, "normally, the race director would have sent an email that he should have let Button back past.

"Not this time," the Austrian said.

I have a question about that claim, Whiting's opinion has no bearing on the stewards decisions so would he offer his opinion by way of email without being asked for it and before the stewards have made a decision?

[myownalias]

Referring to Vettel's penalised pass on Jenson Button, Dr. Helmut Marko observed that, "normally, the race director would have sent an email that he should have let Button back past.

"Not this time," the Austrian said.

I have a question about that claim, Whiting's opinion has no bearing on the stewards decisions so would he offer his opinion by way of email without being asked for it and before the stewards have made a decision?

As race director, Charlie Whiting has the power to do that; but in this case, given the lateness of the pass; maybe it wasn't a viable option, maybe if it happened 10 laps from the end, such an Email could have been sent! Anyway, this is a whole new Grand Prix, time to look past the events of Germany and look forward to Hungary...

[Ichabod]

to be fair to Charlie Whiting if I received an Email from Helmut Marko i would probably just delete it

[LewEngBridewell]

to be fair to Charlie Whiting if I received an Email from Helmut Marko i would probably just delete it

Very true

[andrew]

It was my 'meme response' to your pic of almost butt naked plus sized women.

Plus size?! Those ain't plus size.

[What's Burning?]

I thought beta was better than VHS

I waited until DVD's were out to make a decision.

On the subject at hand however, I keep saying that Red Bull is on their back foot. It will take the top teams what; a few weeks to design an incorporate a similar design? You can't unlearn what you've learned and it's clear that AD and Red Bull learned the EBD lesson better than anyone so they're trying to implement it into the RB8 even though the advantage isn't nearly as great due to the mandated location of the exhausts.

McLaren has made a big step with their car and given their limited dry testing their performance has taken a big jump. Ferrari has been transformed since the Mugello test, and Lotus are hinting quite a big design change on their car as well. The dynamic duo of Newey and Horner are on their back foot and they're apparently having difficulty transitioning to an environment where the RBs dominance is over. What's an owner to do? Helmut's public personality and "catty" response is seemingly very much in line with the response Vettel gave, those two seem to be like peanut butter and jelly or bratwurst and sauerkraut, perfect together.

[LewEngBridewell]

Helmut's public personality and "catty" response is seemingly very much in line with the response Vettel gave, those two seem to be like peanut butter and jelly or bratwurst and sauerkraut, perfect together.

And a thoroughly odious combination for the rest of us.

[andrew]

Helmut's public personality and "catty" response is seemingly very much in line with the response Vettel gave, those two seem to be like peanut butter and jelly or bratwurst and sauerkraut, perfect together.

And a thoroughly odious combination for the rest of us.

What's wrong with penut butter and jam?

[LewEngBridewell]

Helmut's public personality and "catty" response is seemingly very much in line with the response Vettel gave, those two seem to be like peanut butter and jelly or bratwurst and sauerkraut, perfect together.

And a thoroughly odious combination for the rest of us.

What's wrong with penut butter and jam?

Caught me out there.

[andrew]

Helmut's public personality and "catty" response is seemingly very much in line with the response Vettel gave, those two seem to be like peanut butter and jelly or bratwurst and sauerkraut, perfect together.

And a thoroughly odious combination for the rest of us.

What's wrong with penut butter and jam?

Caught me out there.

Never speak about penut butter and jam in a derogatory manner. My wrath will be worse than anything DD can cook up.

[Yoruba]

Yaay....Engine Map rule change!!! http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/18986375

Formula 1 bosses have introduced a rule change to outlaw controversial engine settings on the Red Bull.
The issue, which arose at the German Grand Prix, surrounds settings that ran counter to the intention of the rules, improving cornering performance.
Red Bull were cleared by race stewards because they said the settings did not break the rules as they were written.
The new ruling limits how much teams can change specific settings and applies from the Hungarian Grand Prix.
The row revolves around an immensely complicated issue to do with the computer settings - so-called maps - that control the amount of torque delivered by the engine in various conditions.
What is torque?
Torque is defined as "the twisting or rotary force in a piece of mechanism (as a measurable quantity)".

The amount of torque in relation to the engine speed can have an affect on the car's traction.

Torque definition according to the Oxford English Dictionary
The ruling specifies the limits within which maps can be changed from race to race, as well as other settings.
The FIA's concern in Germany was that Red Bull were using reduced torque settings for a given engine speed. It felt these could act as a form of traction control, limiting wheelspin out of corners.
Rival teams believe Red Bull's actions also allowed them to make more effective use of the exhaust gases for aerodynamic effect.
Governing body the FIA found that Red Bull's engine was delivering less torque at full throttle in the mid-range of the engine's rev band in Germany than it had at the preceding British Grand Prix.
They said this was a breach of article 5.5.3 of the technical regulations, which states that the "maximum accelerator travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or greater than the maximum engine torque at the measured engine speed".
The verdict on Sunday said: "While the stewards do not accept all the arguments of the team, they however conclude that as the regulation is written the map presented does not breach article 5.5.3 of the technical regulations."
The idea of the rule is to prevent the engine delivering less power to the wheels than it can do.
But while the FIA intended it to mean that the engine could not deliver less torque than it was ultimately capable of, Red Bull interpreted it to mean it could not deliver less than it was programmed to deliver on that day.
Play media

German GP 2012: Alonso wins at Hockenheim
As teams are allowed to change their engine maps from race to race, Red Bull were cleared because there was no definition of how big these changes could be before they were not allowed.
The FIA has attempted to close the loophole with a new rule that asks teams to nominate any one engine map used in the first four races of the season as a "reference" map.
The clarification says: "Above 6,000rpm, the maximum engine torque may vary by no more than +/- 2% (from the reference map).
"And the ignition angle may vary by no more than 2.5%."
Retarding the ignition is a common method of employing engine braking, but was also used last year by teams to blow exhaust gases on to rear bodywork when the driver was not pressing the accelerator pedal.
Retarding the ignition in this way ensures the throttles can be left open when the driver is not pressing the accelerator.
This means air continues to blow out of the exhaust and on to aerodynamically sensitive rear bodywork without the rear wheels pushing the car forwards.
This was last year's must-have technology and was known as exhaust-blown diffusers. The FIA introduced rule changes with the intention of banning it this year.
But although off-throttle blowing has been banned, and the exhausts must now exit in an area that is much less aerodynamically sensitive, most leading teams are still trying to harness exhaust gases and use them for aerodynamics as much as possible.
However, the spotlight has fallen only on Red Bull when it comes to controversial engine settings.
It will be a simple matter for Red Bull to switch back to an earlier map but it is unknown whether it will affect their relative competitiveness, or whether the rule change will affect other leading teams.