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[scotty]

having the teams top engineers working on Buttons problem does not affect the development effort on the car?

Go away and realise that the race engineering and aerodynamic development teams are seperate with limited overlap before being so condescending, cause that approach is already backfiring on you....

How do you figure that?

Since he went off on one early '07 before Hamilton even did anything and started proclaiming 'he's already proven himself to be one of the best ever' all this this crap. And the content in many, many of the articles he's written since.

Whatever happenned to logical deabate !

Went out the window when people started just wanting to cry about Hamilton's lack of success this season, like they think he is somehow entitled to it as a divine right or something?!

Although, the real joke is that McLaren have been like this for years and years really, yet it is apparently only just being noticed now by some. 2003 where they won both opening races then nothing all season? '05 where the car was the best by miles, but no titles? '06 with NO wins? Get with the program folks!

[CookinFlat6]

McLaren have been like this for years

so thats all ok then

THERES NOTHING newly WRONG AT MCLAREN!!!

[What's Burning?]

Although, the real joke is that McLaren have been like this for years and years really, yet it is apparently only just being noticed now by some. 2003 where they won both opening races then nothing all season? '05 where the car was the best by miles, but no titles? '06 with NO wins? Get with the program folks!

Renault-Lotus fan says whaa?

[scotty]

Although, the real joke is that McLaren have been like this for years and years really, yet it is apparently only just being noticed now by some. 2003 where they won both opening races then nothing all season? '05 where the car was the best by miles, but no titles? '06 with NO wins? Get with the program folks!

Renault-Lotus fan says whaa?

I'm not constantly crying and bitching about them though am i?

I don't specifically support the team anyway, more Raikkonen.

[Hammer278]

Went out the window when people started just wanting to cry about Hamilton's lack of success this season, like they think he is somehow entitled to it as a divine right or something?!

Although, the real joke is that McLaren have been like this for years and years really, yet it is apparently only just being noticed now by some. 2003 where they won both opening races then nothing all season? '05 where the car was the best by miles, but no titles? '06 with NO wins? Get with the program folks!

2003 was about a consistent team + driver bringing in the results right into the last race. Did you hear much complaints about the team when Hamilton brought in three straight podiums at the start of the season?

2005 featured a great car, with a crap engine. There was a lot of criticism on Mercedes and they were looked at as a liability to McLaren.

Compare this season to last season, the criticism for McLaren wasn't half of it last year. Car was not up to scratch but the team looked respectable as a working unit. The frustration kicks when the team f*cks up with a good car and makes illogical decisions in building a better crutch for their struggling driver instead of building better boots for the better driver. Crap metaphor, but you get the point.

[CookinFlat6]

having the teams top engineers working on Buttons problem does not affect the development effort on the car?

Go away and realise that the race engineering and aerodynamic development teams are seperate with limited overlap before being so condescending, cause that approach is already backfiring on you....

Ok, so the only development of note is the aero effiort? The mechanical grip boys can all be huddled round a table working out Buttons problems and this will not detract from developing the car at all

Buttons issues have not affected the pace of development at Mclaren at all?

Mark Hughes is just a fanboy?

and my condescending approach is backfiring? you gonna give me a warning or you gonna call the police?

[scotty]

That was '02 where Coulthard won.

And i seem to remember plenty of complaining in '09 when McLaren built that dog...

[Hammer278]

Yeah I edited that part, my bad.

The point is, all teams come out with dogs at some point....it's not about the car, more about the team as a working unit. 2009 is a fine example of being overly ambitious plus being caught out by the double diffuser saga along with others but look at how they progressed and ended the season. It's about the direction/progress of a team through a year.

A top team like McLaren are not expected to go backwards! And the reasons they are going backwards just make it even more infuriating.

[What's Burning?]

Although, the real joke is that McLaren have been like this for years and years really, yet it is apparently only just being noticed now by some. 2003 where they won both opening races then nothing all season? '05 where the car was the best by miles, but no titles? '06 with NO wins? Get with the program folks!

Renault-Lotus fan says whaa?

I'm not constantly crying and bitching about them though am i?

I don't specifically support the team anyway, more Raikkonen.

Well then he better step it up lest RoGro show him up at the end of the year. It's a bit close for comfort.

[scotty]

Ok, so the only development of note is the aero effiort? The mechanical grip boys can all be huddled round a table working out Buttons problems and this will not detract from developing the car at all

Buttons issues have not affected the pace of development at Mclaren at all?

Most modern car performance is aero, has been for a few years now... and if you are assuming that every setup engineer has just moved to Button's car - well, you seriously think that? Good luck!

It is very possible to still move forward despite one driver struggling and the team stating that they would work to help out the second driver - it's what happened at Red Bull last season... and logically speaking, if Button's side of the garage are spending time having to explore a range of setup avenues, then the team are actually learning more than they would otherwise, and Hamilton could reap the rewards of the knowledge gained without the loss of having had to spend all the time running various setups Button has had to.

[stonemonkey]

What brakes has Button been using, in Spain he switched to the type Hamilton uses, is he still using them or did he revert back?

[CookinFlat6]

Most modern car performance is aero, has been for a few years now... and if you are assuming that every setup engineer has just moved to Button's car - well, you seriously think that? Good luck!

It is very possible to still move forward despite one driver struggling and the team stating that they would work to help out the second driver - it's what happened at Red Bull last season... and logically speaking, if Button's side of the garage are spending time having to explore a range of setup avenues, then the team are actually learning more than they would otherwise, and Hamilton could reap the rewards of the knowledge gained without the loss of having had to spend all the time running various setups Button has had to.

Hamiltons clear implication was that 'all the top engineers' were unusually spending time and effort on Buttons problem. He was effectively saying there was a departure from normal procedure involving the top engineers. Yes it can sometimes work out that all the top engineers focussing on the weaker drivers woes could help the team and both drivers, but I think the point is that this time it most definitely has not worked out, has it?

As far as condescending replies, how would you class this one on a scale of 1 - 10?

Hamilton has spoken about seeing all the teams top engineers concentrating on dissecting his data lap by lap to try help special needs Jenson. This cannot have helped McLaren in the development race

Even though it is two different sub teams that work in each of those areas....?

[racechick]

Whatever happenned to logical deabate !

Went out the window when people started just wanting to cry about Hamilton's lack of success this season, like they think he is somehow entitled to it as a divine right or something?!

Although, the real joke is that McLaren have been like this for years and years really, yet it is apparently only just being noticed now by some. 2003 where they won both opening races then nothing all season? '05 where the car was the best by miles, but no titles? '06 with NO wins? Get with the program folks!

Ive given plenty of thoughts for logical debate but they've largely been met with the nonsense Cookinflarsix has pointed out.

So Mclaren have been failing hopelessly for years, its just how it's at mclaren. Hey hear that Martin!! Its ok, you can carry on going backwards


I think you must be very selective in what you read from Hughes. Yes he enthused about the rookie Lewi, who wouldn't, but there has been penty of criticism as well. He's generally objective and analytical when he writes.

[scotty]

What brakes has Button been using, in Spain he switched to the type Hamilton uses, is he still using them or did he revert back?

I would assume he reverted back to AP, but really not 100%. I don't think anyone really knows that sort of info, generally speaking.

Hamiltons clear implication was that 'all the top engineers' were unusually spending time and effort on Buttons problem. He was effectively saying there was a departure from normal procedure involving the top engineers. Yes it can sometimes work out that all the top engineers focussing on the weaker drivers woes could help the team and both drivers, but I think the point is that this time it most definitely has not worked out, has it?

If you assume that is the entire problem and that the problem is not a fundamental car design issue/tyre use problem etc etc.

As for your problem with my old post - feel free to complain to admin about me if you want.

So Mclaren have been failing hopelessly for years, its just how it's at mclaren. Hey hear that Martin!! Its ok, you can carry on going backwards

So now i've pointed that out, the tune now changes to this instead of people saying it being Whitmarsh directly causing McLaren to go 'backwards'? Make up your minds

I think you must be very selective in what you read from Hughes. Yes he enthused about the rookie Lewi, who wouldn't, but there has been penty of criticism as well. He's generally objective and analytical when he writes.

Selective? Give it a rest. I've read many of Hughes articles over several years to form my own opinion. The guy fancies Hamilton in my view. I believe we have given our opinions on that guy before, so i won't spend time arguing this to stalemate all over again, if it's all the same to you.

[vaptin]

Cheer up folks, it's not so bad.