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[mnmracer]

China, lap 4: Vettel is in p15 in an underperforming car with no top speed. Finishes the race 5th, 30 seconds behind winner.
Spain, lap 4: Hamilton is in p15 in (one of the) fastest cars, with 3rd highest top speed. Finishes the race 8th, 80 seconds behind winner.

He did well today, but it wasn't a once-in-a-life-time drive. It's what you can expect the three best drivers on the grid.
So yes, Hamilton proved again proved today to be one of the three best drivers on the grid. No, he didn't prove that he is the best.

The difference being is that Hamilton was on pole and would have likely had a cakewalk of a race. In China, Vettel started in 11th place, and was there of his own accord... not because he was handed down a ten spot grid penalty or moved to the back of the bus. You can't just look at numbers my friend.

I'm not saying Hamilton himself deserved to be there, but Vettel fought back from p15 to p5 in a slower car, while Hamilton fought back from p15 to p8 in a faster car.

[What's Burning?]

China, lap 4: Vettel is in p15 in an underperforming car with no top speed. Finishes the race 5th, 30 seconds behind winner.
Spain, lap 4: Hamilton is in p15 in (one of the) fastest cars, with 3rd highest top speed. Finishes the race 8th, 80 seconds behind winner.

He did well today, but it wasn't a once-in-a-life-time drive. It's what you can expect the three best drivers on the grid.
So yes, Hamilton proved again proved today to be one of the three best drivers on the grid. No, he didn't prove that he is the best.

The difference being is that Hamilton was on pole and would have likely had a cakewalk of a race. In China, Vettel started in 11th place, and was there of his own accord... not because he was handed down a ten spot grid penalty or moved to the back of the bus. You can't just look at numbers my friend.

I'm not saying Hamilton himself deserved to be there, but Vettel fought back from p15 to p5 in a slower car, while Hamilton fought back from p15 to p8 in a faster car.

Vettel should try McLaren's pit for a race of two. Talk to me then.

[bud]

You can't compare two different races. So many differing factors are involved which is why as my friend WB said you can't just compare numbers.

[mnmracer]

China, lap 4: Vettel is in p15 in an underperforming car with no top speed. Finishes the race 5th, 30 seconds behind winner.
Spain, lap 4: Hamilton is in p15 in (one of the) fastest cars, with 3rd highest top speed. Finishes the race 8th, 80 seconds behind winner.

He did well today, but it wasn't a once-in-a-life-time drive. It's what you can expect the three best drivers on the grid.
So yes, Hamilton proved again proved today to be one of the three best drivers on the grid. No, he didn't prove that he is the best.

The difference being is that Hamilton was on pole and would have likely had a cakewalk of a race. In China, Vettel started in 11th place, and was there of his own accord... not because he was handed down a ten spot grid penalty or moved to the back of the bus. You can't just look at numbers my friend.

I'm not saying Hamilton himself deserved to be there, but Vettel fought back from p15 to p5 in a slower car, while Hamilton fought back from p15 to p8 in a faster car.

Vettel should try McLaren's pit for a race of two. Talk to me then.

He lost 3.5 seconds in the pit stop today. That would have put him on p7, in front of Rosberg.

As I said, he did well today, but it wasn't a once-in-a-life-time drive. It's what you can expect the three best drivers on the grid.
So yes, Hamilton proved again proved today to be one of the three best drivers on the grid. No, he didn't prove that he is the best.

You can't compare two different races. So many differing factors are involved which is why as my friend WB said you can't just compare numbers.

Plenty of races are being compared all the time. If anything, the factors involved in China were harder then in Spain.

[darwin dali]

How is it irrelevant to bring up an example to counter a claim you made about Management trying to cover up/lie to stewards over an incident?

Because we're discussing whether or not McLaren deliberately and (group-wise) consciously made decisions that led to the rule infraction and the penalty. What other people have or have not done at various times in the past does not tell us anything about what McLaren did or did not do this weekend.

Sorry but that is bull. It is absolutely relevant that consistency is maintained in applying the rules. Whether or not the perceived over punishing of LH is a fact, he is the highest penalised driver by the FIA (probably ever) and greater offences that we all can remember have gone unpunished.

Precisely. It was McLarens cockup, but the penalty is insane. What about McLaren + Hamilton's Q1 and Q2 efforts? All those times are erased? The damn car was LEGAL in both those sessions and made it back to the pits. But he's pushed back behind a driver who didn't even make f*cking 107% and given the green to race. F1 is a joke...but "maybe because I'm black". Sorry, had to say it.

Beat me to it The bold, italicized, underlined part is what makes the ruling completely ridiculous. His car was legal during those times, so like I mentioned before he should at least have gotten to be P10.

No, the car was not legal at all times during the event - the event being qualifying.

[What's Burning?]

How is it irrelevant to bring up an example to counter a claim you made about Management trying to cover up/lie to stewards over an incident?

Because we're discussing whether or not McLaren deliberately and (group-wise) consciously made decisions that led to the rule infraction and the penalty. What other people have or have not done at various times in the past does not tell us anything about what McLaren did or did not do this weekend.

Sorry but that is bull. It is absolutely relevant that consistency is maintained in applying the rules. Whether or not the perceived over punishing of LH is a fact, he is the highest penalised driver by the FIA (probably ever) and greater offences that we all can remember have gone unpunished.

Precisely. It was McLarens cockup, but the penalty is insane. What about McLaren + Hamilton's Q1 and Q2 efforts? All those times are erased? The damn car was LEGAL in both those sessions and made it back to the pits. But he's pushed back behind a driver who didn't even make f*cking 107% and given the green to race. F1 is a joke...but "maybe because I'm black". Sorry, had to say it.

Beat me to it The bold, italicized, underlined part is what makes the ruling completely ridiculous. His car was legal during those times, so like I mentioned before he should at least have gotten to be P10.

No, the car was not legal at all times during the event - the event being qualifying.

Yes, that's understood, it's the interpretation they chose to use, it's also supremely harsh and I'd bet a paycheck they wouldn't have applied that same interpretation to someone like say... Rosberg.

Do they measure for the one liter of fuel after EVERY Q session... I don't know if they do.

[bud]

China, lap 4: Vettel is in p15 in an underperforming car with no top speed. Finishes the race 5th, 30 seconds behind winner.
Spain, lap 4: Hamilton is in p15 in (one of the) fastest cars, with 3rd highest top speed. Finishes the race 8th, 80 seconds behind winner.

He did well today, but it wasn't a once-in-a-life-time drive. It's what you can expect the three best drivers on the grid.
So yes, Hamilton proved again proved today to be one of the three best drivers on the grid. No, he didn't prove that he is the best.

The difference being is that Hamilton was on pole and would have likely had a cakewalk of a race. In China, Vettel started in 11th place, and was there of his own accord... not because he was handed down a ten spot grid penalty or moved to the back of the bus. You can't just look at numbers my friend.

I'm not saying Hamilton himself deserved to be there, but Vettel fought back from p15 to p5 in a slower car, while Hamilton fought back from p15 to p8 in a faster car.

Vettel should try McLaren's pit for a race of two. Talk to me then.

He lost 3.5 seconds in the pit stop today. That would have put him on p7, in front of Rosberg.

As I said, he did well today, but it wasn't a once-in-a-life-time drive. It's what you can expect the three best drivers on the grid.
So yes, Hamilton proved again proved today to be one of the three best drivers on the grid. No, he didn't prove that he is the best.

You can't compare two different races. So many differing factors are involved which is why as my friend WB said you can't just compare numbers.

Plenty of races are being compared all the time. If anything, the factors involved in China were harder then in Spain.

How were they harder? More importantly why is this even being discussed? So many different factors involved different tyres different external factors, relative pace of the cars in the field. You can't just say Vettels China drive was better or vice versa.
End of the day the numbers say Vettel started P11 finished P5, Lewis started P24 finished P8 I know how much you like numbers and stats.

Do they measure for the one liter of fuel after EVERY Q session... I don't know if they do.

No it's only in parc ferme, Lewis's car didn't breach any rules in Q1 or Q 2.

[LewEngBridewell]

Is anyone watching the coverage! Massive fire at Williams, smoke all over the paddock, firefighting going on. Insane.

[Ferrari man 009]

Unless im mistaken, only Alonso and Hamilton have now scored in every race, which shows what a great job Alonso has done. Hamilton has been in the quickest car and would be well ahead in the championship if it wasnt for silly errors!


And as I write this, hope everyone is ok, HUGE fire @ Williams!!!!!

Dont know whats caused it, but fair play to all the teams for helping out as quick as they could have!

We think everyone is ok, but not 100% yet.

[Hammer278]

China, lap 4: Vettel is in p15 in an underperforming car with no top speed. Finishes the race 5th, 30 seconds behind winner.
Spain, lap 4: Hamilton is in p15 in (one of the) fastest cars, with 3rd highest top speed. Finishes the race 8th, 80 seconds behind winner.

He did well today, but it wasn't a once-in-a-life-time drive. It's what you can expect the three best drivers on the grid.
So yes, Hamilton proved again proved today to be one of the three best drivers on the grid. No, he didn't prove that he is the best.

The difference being is that Hamilton was on pole and would have likely had a cakewalk of a race. In China, Vettel started in 11th place, and was there of his own accord... not because he was handed down a ten spot grid penalty or moved to the back of the bus. You can't just look at numbers my friend.

I'm not saying Hamilton himself deserved to be there, but Vettel fought back from p15 to p5 in a slower car, while Hamilton fought back from p15 to p8 in a faster car.

Vettel should try McLaren's pit for a race of two. Talk to me then.

He lost 3.5 seconds in the pit stop today. That would have put him on p7, in front of Rosberg.

As I said, he did well today, but it wasn't a once-in-a-life-time drive. It's what you can expect the three best drivers on the grid.
So yes, Hamilton proved again proved today to be one of the three best drivers on the grid. No, he didn't prove that he is the best.

You can't compare two different races. So many differing factors are involved which is why as my friend WB said you can't just compare numbers.

Plenty of races are being compared all the time. If anything, the factors involved in China were harder then in Spain.

What a JOKE.

Hey buddy, Kimi won from almost dead last in Suzuka 2005 so that makes him a better driver than Vettel?

Seriously, stick to your race facts and figures...it becomes hilarious when you venture into driver to driver analysis.

[LewEngBridewell]

And as I write this, hope everyone is ok, HUGE fire @ Williams!!!!!

Dont know whats caused it, but fair play to all the teams for helping out as quick as they could have!

We think everyone is ok, but not 100% yet.

Yes, I can't believe the pictures. The paddock is thick with smoke after a massive explosion at Williams. It's a KERS explosion I think. Apparently, according to Jake Humphrey on the BBC, there could be injuries. Shocking.

[LRW]

looks BAD.

[myownalias]

Is anyone watching the coverage! Massive fire at Williams, smoke all over the paddock, firefighting going on. Insane.

I'm watching, horrible way to end the day for WIlliams!

[zurich_allan]

Time to drag up a post from the past - hate to say I told you so (in spite of many others on this board rubbishing todays winner at many times in the past), but...

I'd go even further than that - I'm sick of people referring to Maldonado as a pay driver when they're using it as a derogatory term (99% of the time). As said, he won the GP2 title, and with 6 feature race wins including Silverstone and Spa - two real 'racers' circuits. He's hardly been in a position to demonstrate his talents in F1 yet. It IS possible for somebody to be both a talented driver AND have strong financial backing! He was fairly even with Rubens last year, so considering it was only his first year in F1 I think a lot of people are being WAY overly harsh on him. I'm certainly not saying he's a future WDC or anything, but it seems to me that he could well be perfectly capable and obviously does have a decent amount of talent.

EDIT: Quick glance at his stats, and they're actually even more impressive than what I had thought:

2004 : Italian Formula Renault - Won title - 17 races - 8 wins - 6 poles
2005 : Italian F3000 - 4 races - 1 win
2006 : Formula Renault 3.5 - 3 wins - 5 poles - another 6 podiums - would have won the title but for a technical infringment resulting in 15 points lost
2007 : GP2 - Won at Monaco, broken collar bone mid-season meant he missed four rounds (8 races) effectively ruining his season
2008 : GP2 - 1 win - another 5 podiums
2009 : Euroseries 3000 - competed in one round (2 races) and won one of the races
2009 : GP2 - 2 wins in first half of the season with 8 consecutive points finishes followed by a horrendous second half of the season
2010 : GP2 - Won title with 6 wins

I'm sorry, but those are NOT the stats of a traditional pay driver - 2 titles (could have been three), 23 wins and many more podiums and pole positions in various highly respectable series between 2004 and 2010.

Source: ME! On 9th of March this year: http://www.forumula1.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10845&hilit=maldonado&start=600

Such a great race from Pastor today, kept calm even after losing the lead after the start and through his pit stop issue, drove very maturely when Alonso was breathing down his neck at various stages, and was blisteringly quick when he needed to be! Very happy for him to prove his detractors wrong today with a well deserved win on pure merit.

[andrew]

Is anyone watching the coverage! Massive fire at Williams, smoke all over the paddock, firefighting going on. Insane.

Where you seeing this?