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[acosmichippo]

Not sure where the Lewis made an illegal move is coming from, but there were other and more egregious moves during the GP so that you point at that, you must understand why someone would question the motivation. IMO, I thoroughly enjoyed seeing a race free of accidents and boneheaded moves and most importantly free of arbitrary and often patronizingly handed down penalties.

The motivation is that someone previously in this thread posted a rather silly comment, unprovoked as far as I noticed, criticising unknown and unnamed persons who were criticising Hamilton for weaving when that's just "breaking the tow". Look for my first post, then just above it. Hence I followed up showing that it there is actually gold plated evidence of Hamilton's moves being against the rules. By posting a link to the video, specifying the exact seconds to watch, and then quoting the relevant rules.

Defending a driver is one thing, but defending a driver when there's unmistakeable video evidence that they're in the wrong. Well, that's just silly.

And defending a driver because someone else apparently did something worse. Even if this did happen (has anyone posted the example yet?), it doesn't excuse anything Hamilton did.

the problem is the video is evidence he did nothing wrong.

[FerrariFan63]

the problem is the video is evidence he did nothing wrong.

Yeah, I've seen the arguments up above that Hamilton only moved once. Except that he moved three times. You can count them, one, two, three. And then there are claims that the rule only applies in the braking zone, even though there's nothing in the rules that says that. And on it goes.

It's a lesson in exactly how bizarre people's thought processes will become when they're predisposed to conclude the unconcludeable.

It's very simple. Hamilton moved several times when defending his position from Vettel, and the rules state that he's not allowed to move more than once. But next we'll have a post saying that the rule only applies if he's defending his position from a cow or other livestock. Or perhaps that in F1 numbers have different meaning such that "more than one" actually means "more than ten". Or maybe someone will claim that the BBC footage isn't from the race but is a 3D render created by a shadowy conspiracy of giant lizards dedicated to preventing Hamilton winning every championship for twenty years which of course is what would happen if Hamilton wasn't cheated out of it. And so on.

[myownalias]

What exactly is the definition of a defensive move? the rules state that a driver can only make one defensive move, but when does 'breaking the tow' turn into a defensive move? personally I would describe 'breaking the tow' as a defensive move. But I guess that as the stewards took no action, they believe it must to be within the rules. Again the FIA fail in their clarification of their own rules, even the BBC commentators picked up on it and commented about rule breaking and these are former drivers, experts if you like!

[FerrariFan63]

What exactly is the definition of a defensive move? the rules state that a driver can only make one defensive move, but when does 'breaking the tow' turn into a defensive move? personally I would describe 'breaking the tow' as a defensive move. But I guess that as the stewards took no action, they believe it must to be within the rules. Again the FIA fail in their clarification of their own rules, even the BBC commentators picked up on it and commented about rule breaking and these are former drivers, experts if you like!

There will always be grey areas as to when a driver is defending or not. But, when another car is right on their gearbox well into the slipstream, then moves off the racing line are moves to defend position. A quick perusal of the regulations shows that there is no mention of, let alone exception for, "breaking the tow". The reason drivers move to "break the tow" is to defend their position, because otherwise they are at risk of being overtaken by the slipstreaming car. They are allowed to make one such move. Not two or more.

[What's Burning?]

Not sure where the Lewis made an illegal move is coming from, but there were other and more egregious moves during the GP so that you point at that, you must understand why someone would question the motivation. IMO, I thoroughly enjoyed seeing a race free of accidents and boneheaded moves and most importantly free of arbitrary and often patronizingly handed down penalties.

The motivation is that someone previously in this thread posted a rather silly comment, unprovoked as far as I noticed, criticising unknown and unnamed persons who were criticising Hamilton for weaving when that's just "breaking the tow". Look for my first post, then just above it. Hence I followed up showing that it there is actually gold plated evidence of Hamilton's moves being against the rules. By posting a link to the video, specifying the exact seconds to watch, and then quoting the relevant rules.

Defending a driver is one thing, but defending a driver when there's unmistakeable video evidence that they're in the wrong. Well, that's just silly.

And defending a driver because someone else apparently did something worse. Even if this did happen (has anyone posted the example yet?), it doesn't excuse anything Hamilton did.

I appreciate the patient explanation of your thought process and the detailed instruction on how to review your posted evidence, the problem is though it only works if you're within the UK. So I can't look at the specific time you point. I did however watch the race twice, and the last 14 laps three or four times! It was that good. The fact that he wasn't issued a penalty for the move you're pointing to, and no one else got called for penalties for moves that in my opinion were more egregious, is the point I was making. Enjoy the racing, because it was spectacular, even if you don't like what Hamilton specifically did. So you must be in a particularly small minority of opinion in this one since there was no penalty issued or even called for a review. So why present evidence of a non existent issue? I'd have given your opinion a lot more weight if the stewards had decided to review the move, which they didn't and of course. They didn't since they also didn't review the move right before that by Vettel or the move on Kobayashi by Perez.

[stonemonkey]

Was great to have a race like that without the interference from the stewards, I think the only investigation that came up was into Schumachers wheel. As far as I see it, Vettel did nothing wrong, Hamilton probably did. For something like that I'd much rather see the team warned in the way that happened with Massa cutting the chicanes in Monaco a couple of years ago.

What exactly is the definition of a defensive move? the rules state that a driver can only make one defensive move, but when does 'breaking the tow' turn into a defensive move? personally I would describe 'breaking the tow' as a defensive move. But I guess that as the stewards took no action, they believe it must to be within the rules. Again the FIA fail in their clarification of their own rules, even the BBC commentators picked up on it and commented about rule breaking and these are former drivers, experts if you like!

I thought it had been clarified after Hamilton doing something similar in Malaysia before that moving like that to break the tow wasn't allowed.

[bud]

What exactly is the definition of a defensive move? the rules state that a driver can only make one defensive move, but when does 'breaking the tow' turn into a defensive move? personally I would describe 'breaking the tow' as a defensive move. But I guess that as the stewards took no action, they believe it must to be within the rules. Again the FIA fail in their clarification of their own rules, even the BBC commentators picked up on it and commented about rule breaking and these are former drivers, experts if you like!

There will always be grey areas as to when a driver is defending or not. But, when another car is right on their gearbox well into the slipstream, then moves off the racing line are moves to defend position. A quick perusal of the regulations shows that there is no mention of, let alone exception for, "breaking the tow". The reason drivers move to "break the tow" is to defend their position, because otherwise they are at risk of being overtaken by the slipstreaming car. They are allowed to make one such move. Not two or more.

Actually its been proven he only moved across once i posted photos to prove this from a recording i made of the race. I also posted the exact regulation on the one move rule in which Lewis moved onto the racing line after the corner, then moved off which he kept until the corner. And reading the rules this is perfectly okay.

He broke no rule, no one in the stewarding box think he broke a rule, only a stuck up Ferrari fan who always has an issue with Lewis and or McLaren thinks he broke a rule.

But please prove how he moved several times? I'm curious to see your distorted account of things..,

[andrew]

This will be an on-going problem throughout the season I fear. It seems there is a nice grey area between blocking by weaving and breaking/trying to break a tow.

[stonemonkey]

What exactly is the definition of a defensive move? the rules state that a driver can only make one defensive move, but when does 'breaking the tow' turn into a defensive move? personally I would describe 'breaking the tow' as a defensive move. But I guess that as the stewards took no action, they believe it must to be within the rules. Again the FIA fail in their clarification of their own rules, even the BBC commentators picked up on it and commented about rule breaking and these are former drivers, experts if you like!

There will always be grey areas as to when a driver is defending or not. But, when another car is right on their gearbox well into the slipstream, then moves off the racing line are moves to defend position. A quick perusal of the regulations shows that there is no mention of, let alone exception for, "breaking the tow". The reason drivers move to "break the tow" is to defend their position, because otherwise they are at risk of being overtaken by the slipstreaming car. They are allowed to make one such move. Not two or more.

Actually its been proven he only moved across once i posted photos to prove this from a recording i made of the race. I also posted the exact regulation on the one move rule in which Lewis moved onto the racing line after the corner, then moved off which he kept until the corner. And reading the rules this is perfectly okay.

He broke no rule, no one in the stewarding box think he broke a rule, only a stuck up Ferrari fan who always has an issue with Lewis and or McLaren thinks he broke a rule.

But please prove how he moved several times? I'm curious to see your distorted account of things..,

I had thought it was dodgy before but just looked at it again, the racing line crosses the track there so he did only make one move off the line.

[FerrariFan63]

Actually its been proven he only moved across once i posted photos to prove this from a recording i made of the race. I also posted the exact regulation on the one move rule in which Lewis moved onto the racing line after the corner, then moved off which he kept until the corner. And reading the rules this is perfectly okay.

I just re-watched the footage. You can say that it's "proven" that he only moved across once, but I just watched live video, and you see him move once, then twice (triggering comment from Coulthard that Hamilton will have to watch that weaving - he then explains the rules later on). He then moves over to take up the racing line for the corner. The very clear video makes it quite clear that Hamilton moves twice on the straight, there's no doubt whatsoever.

I had thought it was dodgy before but just looked at it again, the racing line crosses the track there so he did only make one move off the line.

Watch other cars coming down the straight. They take a straight line down the straight, they don't make the sudden left/right moves that Hamilton does. The racing line down there is a straight line, not an S shape like the line that Hamilton takes.

[stonemonkey]

Actually its been proven he only moved across once i posted photos to prove this from a recording i made of the race. I also posted the exact regulation on the one move rule in which Lewis moved onto the racing line after the corner, then moved off which he kept until the corner. And reading the rules this is perfectly okay.

I just re-watched the footage. You can say that it's "proven" that he only moved across once, but I just watched live video, and you see him move once, then twice (triggering comment from Coulthard that Hamilton will have to watch that weaving - he then explains the rules later on). He then moves over to take up the racing line for the corner. The very clear video makes it quite clear that Hamilton moves twice on the straight, there's no doubt whatsoever.

The driver is allowed to go back to the racing line when approaching the corner but must leave a cars width to the side of the track.

[bud]

This will be an on-going problem throughout the season I fear. It seems there is a nice grey area between blocking by weaving and breaking/trying to break a tow.

Hamilton never blocked, by weaving or in the traditional sense. But you're right the one move rule is grey as many drivers blocked then returned to the racing line that race. I'm actually from a racing standpoint okay with that.

-Firstly it's a long straight and the front on footage has lead to this debate as its misleading.

-Sebastian was not going to try pass just leaving the exit of the final turn, as that would be stupid unless he had more straight line speed which he only had slightly due to a better exit. So he was lining up a pass in braking for T1.

- Hamilton moved to the left aggressively after the exit of the final turn, but as has been pointed out by Lew he moved to the racing line for turn 1 anyway, so in affect he took the racing line.

-All this time Both Redbulls were directly behind they were not trying to pass so no blocking move was made.

- He then moved to the right off the racing line, advantageous as it was the inside line for T1. he kept this line until they converged for T1 where Lewis had better track position.

I cannot see several moved here, Game over.

[andrew]

This will be an on-going problem throughout the season I fear. It seems there is a nice grey area between blocking by weaving and breaking/trying to break a tow.

Hamilton never blocked, by weaving or in the traditional sense. But you're right the one move rule is grey as many drivers blocked then returned to the racing line that race. I'm actually from a racing standpoint okay with that.

-Firstly it's a long straight and the front on footage has lead to this debate as its misleading.

-Sebastian was not going to try pass just leaving the exit of the final turn, as that would be stupid unless he had more straight line speed which he only had slightly due to a better exit. So he was lining up a pass in braking for T1.

- Hamilton moved to the left aggressively after the exit of the final turn, but as has been pointed out by Lew he moved to the racing line for turn 1 anyway, so in affect he took the racing line.

-All this time Both Redbulls were directly behind they were not trying to pass so no blocking move was made.

- He then moved to the right off the racing line, advantageous as it was the inside line for T1. he kept this line until they converged for T1 where Lewis had better track position.

I cannot see several moved here, Game over.

Try reading what I wrote properly. I didn't accuse anyone of anything.

[bud]

I was replying as a whole, I quoted you with the reply in paragraph under it.

[FerrariFan63]

Hamilton never blocked, by weaving or in the traditional sense. But you're right the one move rule is grey as many drivers blocked then returned to the racing line that race. I'm actually from a racing standpoint okay with that.

-Firstly it's a long straight and the front on footage has lead to this debate as its misleading.

-Sebastian was not going to try pass just leaving the exit of the final turn, as that would be stupid unless he had more straight line speed which he only had slightly due to a better exit. So he was lining up a pass in braking for T1.

- Hamilton moved to the left aggressively after the exit of the final turn, but as has been pointed out by Lew he moved to the racing line for turn 1 anyway, so in affect he took the racing line.

-All this time Both Redbulls were directly behind they were not trying to pass so no blocking move was made.

- He then moved to the right off the racing line, advantageous as it was the inside line for T1. he kept this line until they converged for T1 where Lewis had better track position.

I cannot see several moved here, Game over.

I've just watched it again, and there are two clear moves on the straight, followed by a return to the racing line for the corner. The camera angle isn't misleading in the slightest as you get a clear unobstructed view down the straight, and can see Hamiltons moves right and left, and right again. The moves are large moves, so there's no mistaking them or room for doubt as to whether he made moves. Particularly in comparison to the racing line taken by other cars on that straight.

There are other cars in sight allowing comparison of Hamilton's line to the racing line. And comparing Hamilton's lines to other cars on previous laps (e.g. see Button holding a dead straight line on a previous lap). The second move actually takes Hamilton away from the racing line as by that point of the straight, the racing line is over the other side. I watched cars on that straight for about ten minutes of race. Also, because some previous posters claimed that Vettel was weaving even worse when defending from Hamilton, so I kept a very close watch out for that, and there was no evidence of that. Vettel defending from Button sticks to the racing line and does not make any decisive moves. When Button gets past it's clean and fair racing from both, even to the point of Vettel not really defending as robustly as he probably should have. When Vettel then follows Button after Button gets past, Button holds the straight racing line down the straight, but has the speed to stay ahead. When Vettel is defending from Hamilton, he holds his line around previous corners. On the straight when Hamilton gets past, Vettel moves once, but Hamilton moves and then makes the pass. Vettel makes a second move, but this is after Hamilton has moved alongside, and Vettel's second move actually takes him away from Hamilton, giving Hamilton more space to move to the racing line for the corner. Hence this second move can't be called "defending his position" as he was actually conceding the position.

As I said, this is as clear as day. There's so much video evidence that it's undeniable. But, still people deny it.