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[bud]

This coming from someone who didn't think a racing line continued through a corner, seems to me you don't really understand what a racing line is... NK is on the racing line, I think all who saw the video can see this quiet clearly, whether he is 1.3m away from the track edge means nothing especially in those conditions. The drivers aren't robots they won't take the exact same line to the mm every lap, especially when your tyres get older, fuel gets lower and track conditions change every lap. if you race karts like you said to me you'd know this first hand right? So even though NK didn't use all the track like Hamilton did in Q does not mean he is off the racing line.

End of the day this is getting old, I see a logical response from Zurich Allen, I see Nico Hulkenbergs opinion. The only one i have come across so far to suggest NK was totally in the wrong is a Vettel Fan, Which is totally understandable.

[mnmracer]

This coming from someone who didn't think a racing line continued through a corner, seems to me you don't really understand what a racing line is... NK is on the racing line, I think all who saw the video can see this quiet clearly, whether he is 1.3m away from the track edge means nothing especially in those conditions. The drivers aren't robots they won't take the exact same line to the mm every lap, especially when your tyres get older, fuel gets lower and track conditions change every lap. if you race karts like you said to me you'd know this first hand right? So even though NK didn't use all the track like Hamilton did in Q does not mean he is off the racing line.

End of the day this is getting old, I see a logical response from Zurich Allen, I see Nico Hulkenbergs opinion. The only one i have come across so far to suggest NK was totally in the wrong is a Vettel Fan, Which is totally understandable.

As long as you keep ignoring the racing line the Marussia took, we won't go anywhere.

In these conditions, we have seen two distinctly different racing lines:
* The Marussia's, which took the exact same racing line as Hamilton in the dry.
* Karthikeyan's, which ended up in a collision with someone lapping him.

There is a difference between a racing line that differs a few milimeters, and one that differs the 4+ meter length of a formula one car, and all that is still taking into consideration that as the lapper, Vettel had the right to take the racing line as long as he left enough room.

[bud]

As long as you have this chip on your shoulder that your better than everyone else we won't go anywhere...

So 4 meteres? huh i thought you said he was 5ft away from the track edge? which is the ideal line? Show me an onboard of the Marussia in comparison to the onboard of Hamiltons pole lap... Like I said and you as a racer should have an understanding of this from a drivers perspective NK can be 1m away from the ideal line doesn't mean he is off the racing line.

The only driver not on the racing line in all your pretty little diagrams is Vettel! Its not rocket science!

[mnmracer]

So 4 meteres? huh i thought you said he was 5ft away from the track edge? which is the ideal line? Show me an onboard of the Marussia in comparison to the onboard of Hamiltons pole lap... Like I said and you as a racer should have an understanding of this from a drivers perspective NK can be 1m away from the ideal line doesn't mean he is off the racing line.

He is 5ft away from the track edge lateral.
He is 4 odd meters from the racing line longitudal.
Karthikeyan turned in a total of 20ft/7 meters early.


And again, this is all assuming it is ok for a driver being lapped to claim the racing line while the overtaker is going there.

The only driver not on the racing line in all your pretty little diagrams is Vettel! Its not rocket science!

So if Vettel's not on the racing line, how did he cut off Karthikeyan on the racing line?

[bud]

Nice diagram but i prefer metrics for future reference
NK can take the line he chose whether this was because he deliberately tried to avoid the white line like he said post race or the most likely the cause, he had a Redbull on the inside before the corner causing him to carry less entry and mid corner speed and thus his exit was compromised.

Its back on youtube
[youtube]fRc_NZll5oQ[/youtube]

[mnmracer]

Nice diagram but i prefer metrics for future reference

Amen, brother!
I can never quite remember who uses which system. It's kind of silly if you ask me.

[zurich_allan]

Time for another clarification.

Vettel wasn't following the racing line, he was cutting across it by moving in a straight line whereas the racing linemoves from left to right (or right to left if facing the oncoming cars) as the straight continues. He was coming from off the racing line on the inside, eventually moving to off the racing line to the outside. Logic tells you that at some point he must then cross that racing line and therefore be on it. This doesn't mean that he's following the racing line (which he indisputably wasn't), it means that he's cutting across it.

The cars do follow slightly different lines as can be seen in many youtube videos from many turns of many curcuits, but generally follow the same general direction even if a few feet of a difference (some cars understeer, some oversteer, different aero, different braking points and acceleration styles etc.). This is why on a wet track you'll see a general racing line, likely between 2 and 3 times the width of a car as this is likely the margin of difference between all cars with some taking tighter lines and others sligtly wider.

Linking to the above, the line Vettel took was NOT one of these 'different' but normal lines, it was a chosen altogether different and abnormal line, and to repeat, for what reason we do not know. But it was a different line heading in the opposite direction in a lateral sense to where the racing line goes.

Two unpredictable movements at the speed they're going, in realtime (the place of the move and the unpredictable line) are what resulted in the accident. To me, it was simple immaturity (in a racing sense) and lack of experience on the part of Vettel that caused this. He is fantastically talented, ridiculously quick, but still raw in many areas that I have no doubt he will improve on in years to come. This race, and particular incident, is a very, very clear example of that.

Why do you keep dodging this mnmracer??

I'm sorry but I'm completely unbiased - look at my signature - Vettel is one of my favourite racers, but I DO know a lot about various different forms of motorsport, not just F1 and not just cars having followed probably a dozen or more series for more than 20 years. I'm going to repeat this again and it's not an insult, let me be clear, I'm just linking it to what I know about motorsport as you are continuingly showing to me that you don't actually know what you're talking about, yet are continuingly stating everything you're saying as being 'factual' when it blatantly isn't.

Why do you have to have this massive chip on your shoulder that you have to be right about everything??

[bud]

Australia converted to Metrics in the 60s I think our friends in the UK are slowly converting to Metric also apart from their Auto industry. The Americans are still pretty stuck with Imperial.

[mnmracer]

Vettel wasn't following the racing line, he was cutting across it by moving in a straight line whereas the racing linemoves from left to right (or right to left if facing the oncoming cars) as the straight continues. He was coming from off the racing line on the inside, eventually moving to off the racing line to the outside. Logic tells you that at some point he must then cross that racing line and therefore be on it. This doesn't mean that he's following the racing line (which he indisputably wasn't), it means that he's cutting across it.

Vettel was always to the right side of the racing line. He never cut across it. He never even moved towards it.
The racing line, up to the "dark/light grass edge" point, is parallel to the curbs and the track edge.

As is evident from the onboard, Vettel at all times kept parallel to curbs and thereby the racing line.

The cars do follow slightly different lines as can be seen in many youtube videos from many turns of many curcuits, but generally follow the same general direction even if a few feet of a difference (some cars understeer, some oversteer, different aero, different braking points and acceleration styles etc.). This is why on a wet track you'll see a general racing line, likely between 2 and 3 times the width of a car as this is likely the margin of difference between all cars with some taking tighter lines and others sligtly wider.

Karthikeyan had already chosen his racing line to be on the edge of the track, as always.
And 20 feet is not 'a few feet'.

Linking to the above, the line Vettel took was NOT one of these 'different' but normal lines, it was a chosen altogether different and abnormal line, and to repeat, for what reason we do not know. But it was a different line heading in the opposite direction in a lateral sense to where the racing line goes.

No it wasn't. Again, the onboard shows there was no lateral movement to the racing line.

Why do you have to have this massive chip on your shoulder that you have to be right about everything??

Not about everything, just about the things I'm right about. When you make these claims that completely contradict the footage, I'd be a cucumber to say you're right.

[andrew]

Seriously, there were faults on both sides. What's happened happened, it's in the past.

Can we discuss something else or do I need to break out The Snail (Lew knows what I mean )?

[zurich_allan]

Vettel's straight line was going in the opposite direction from the direction of the straight line every other car (after exiting the corner) was travelling on on the straight. It was not the same direction as the racing line. You can pick and choose what you take from the footage all you want, and in fact on viewing the footage that Bud put up a couple of hours ago, you actually see Vettel make a slight mistake on exiting the corner (because of the overly tight line in he chose directly linked to the fact that he chose to overtake in an inappropriate place) on the first angle showing the cars from behind, which makes his car have a slight wobble causing him to straighten up (in the same way you mentioned above - when a driver has a moment on exiting a corner the first thing they often do is straighten up). I actually think it was this mistake on his part that caused him to take the abnormal line that he did take, which then was the catalyst for what followed.

Honestly, I give up trying to talk sense, I'm not posting any more on this thread as I can see I'm wasting my breath. You clearly can't reason with a fanboy of any driver / team, and this is no different.

Andrew - you're right of course. Both drivers contributed to this, hence it was a racing incident. My initial reaction was that it was completely Vettel's fault. On reviewing various angles etc. in the hours after the race I openly admitted that NK clearly did move across and this is obviously why the stewards gave him the penalty (you see, I CAN change MY mind because I am open to it when proper analysis is done), even though the stewards completely ignored the other side. What is so irritating as that there was fault on both sides, and actually I would argue that it's either 60/40 or 70/30 more the fault of Vettel for the reasons I've mentioned various times. It's so irritating when fanboys simply refuse to concede that their golden child was in any way contributory to the accident, when in this case it is blatantly obvious to all but the most blinded.

As I said, I've stated my points, I'm going to leave it at that. It's like talking to a wall.

[Hammer278]

I must hand it to bud and zurichallan...I would've given up reasoning with <EDITED WB> a page and half ago at least.

[mnmracer]

Vettel's straight line was going in the opposite direction from the direction of the straight line every other car (after exiting the corner) was travelling on on the straight. It was not the same direction as the racing line. You can pick and choose what you take from the footage all you want, and in fact on viewing the footage that Bud put up a couple of hours ago, you actually see Vettel make a slight mistake on exiting the corner (because of the overly tight line in he chose directly linked to the fact that he chose to overtake in an inappropriate place) on the first angle showing the cars from behind, which makes his car have a slight wobble causing him to straighten up (in the same way you mentioned above - when a driver has a moment on exiting a corner the first thing they often do is straighten up). I actually think it was this mistake on his part that caused him to take the abnormal line that he did take, which then was the catalyst for what followed.

Honestly, I give up trying to talk sense, I'm not posting any more on this thread as I can see I'm wasting my breath. You clearly can't reason with a fanboy of any driver / team, and this is no different.

Andrew - you're right of course. Both drivers contributed to this, hence it was a racing incident. My initial reaction was that it was completely Vettel's fault. On reviewing various angles etc. in the hours after the race I openly admitted that NK clearly did move across and this is obviously why the stewards gave him the penalty (you see, I CAN change MY mind because I am open to it when proper analysis is done), even though the stewards completely ignored the other side. What is so irritating as that there was fault on both sides, and actually I would argue that it's either 60/40 or 70/30 more the fault of Vettel for the reasons I've mentioned various times. It's so irritating when fanboys simply refuse to concede that their golden child was in any way contributory to the accident, when in this case it is blatantly obvious to all but the most blinded.

As I said, I've stated my points, I'm going to leave it at that. It's like talking to a wall.

While you're not going to reply, I know you're still going to read this; it's human nature. Despite my disbelief for what you're trying to do, I must give you kuddo's for believing in yourself, even when everything so blatanlty proves you're wrong. Using the exact footage that bud posted, I show you how he did not move laterally. It is right there. There's no argueing that. Yet you just say "no, it's not true". You don't even try to prove me wrong. You just dismiss it and come up with this story that is 100% the opposite of the footage. You just look at the evidence and act like it's not there. The blatant disregard for facts you put on is astonishing.

[racechick]

You've missed a "Wahhh", picture off your signature. You could choose from the following:-

"Whahhh Helmut, I want that front wing mine's broken"

"Whahh Whahh, Mark didnt let me past!"

"Whahh Whahh, that cucumber got in my way!"

But back to the race, most people as far as I can see put the blame more on Vettel. These things happen.

[vlad]

You have problems?