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[mnmracer]

You muss have missed my logical unbiased response? I can repost it if you like?

A response already dismissed by three simple facts.
FACT: At the corner exit, Vettel was already half past Karthikeyan. Karthikeyan can't claim he didn't see a car 4ft in front of him.
FACT: Vettel left Karthikeyan enough space on track, regardless of racing line.
FACT: Karthikeyan moved over further than necessary to stay safe on track.

You can argue all you want, but this is what the stewards see and I expect them to know the rules a little better than you.

[bud]

You muss have missed my logical unbiased response? I can repost it if you like?

A response already dismissed by three simple facts.
FACT: At the corner exit, Vettel was already half past Karthikeyan. Karthikeyan can't claim he didn't see a car 4ft in front of him.
FACT: Vettel left Karthikeyan enough space on track, regardless of racing line.
FACT: Karthikeyan moved over further than necessary to stay safe on track.

You can argue all you want, but this is what the stewards see and I expect them to know the rules a little better than you.

you are hilarious at times. You really are a fanboy...

I'm over this I'm not writing the same thing over and over again, as a matter of FACT that would be rather pointless.

[mnmracer]

You muss have missed my logical unbiased response? I can repost it if you like?

A response already dismissed by three simple facts.
FACT: At the corner exit, Vettel was already half past Karthikeyan. Karthikeyan can't claim he didn't see a car 4ft in front of him.
FACT: Vettel left Karthikeyan enough space on track, regardless of racing line.
FACT: Karthikeyan moved over further than necessary to stay safe on track.

You can argue all you want, but this is what the stewards see and I expect them to know the rules a little better than you.

you are hilarious at times. You really are a fanboy...

I'm over this I'm not writing the same thing over and over again, as a matter of FACT that would be rather pointless.

Well, if you would stop writing senseless things, you might not have to. If you would stop your trivial comments and actually reply to what is said and presented, you might not have to.

[bud]

You're really something you know that, look in the mirror mate for something senseless!

But here you go sparky, I've said my view on the incident already, cased closed for me. But if you insist reread

The only line you need to worry about is the racing line, and if you see from each frame NK is following the same line as the cars in front? In comparison to SV who is overtaking and thus offline.

It's the overtakers responsibility to make a clean pass, yes NK was blue flagged but if he is on the racing line (which is what the lapped cars are meant to do as agreed by the drivers in the drivers briefing) what else is he meant to do?

Also you haven't got frames of the other two cars in the same part of the track in these frames. How do you know they also didn't move as he did as shown by your slanted line? Corner exists are a bit iffy at best of times not every car or driver will take the exact same line there as corner entry speeds and exit grip levels are different for every car. NK might have just been getting on the correct line as its a small margin shown by the lines.

There's no rule stating a lapped car needs to give space to the lapping car, only up to a certain amount of Blue flags are they forced to yield but up until then it's the lapping cars responsibility to get passed the car.
As already stated there is driver editquette that must be followed which is agreed upon in the driver briefing, and that's to stay on the racing line so the lapping car knows where the lapped cars going to be.

Vettels problem was he went for the pass just after the exit of a corner, he would have been better off doing it into a corner entry. NK would have had a better idea where he was.

I think if this was someone other than the current world champion then we'd not be discussing this incident, nor would a penalty have been given. For me it's just a racing incident nothing more nothing less, 50/50 blame.

http://sports.ndtv.com/formula-1/news/i ... n-an-idiot

Listen to Hulk at the end of the video he speaks reason.

[mnmracer]

Again, the racing line is completely irrelevant, as is the suggestion Karthikeyan had to jump out of the way. Vettel was already past Karthikeyan when they both came out of the corner AND Vettel left Karthikeyan enough room on track. All Karthikeyan had to do, was not turn in more than necessary.

If both cars kept going as they did in frame 5, nothing would have happened and both would have had plenty of track space. No marbles, no white lines, nothing. Even you can't deny that between frame 5 and frame 9, Karthikeyan clearly moves towards Vettel.

[spankyham]

IMO frames 6 & 7 show Vettel's car is the one on a clearly different angle to all the other cars. It looks to me like he's trying to jink across in front of NK to make some sort of point to him. He definitely didn't need to go there.

However, NK did move over and he didn't have to. IMO it was a racing incident. The finger thing was a heat of the moment thing - understandable. Being abusive long after and then carrying it on is childish, move on Seb.

[bud]

The racing line is relevant when talking lapping cars, I'm sorry you don't see that it is but that's your problem not mine.

And youre still missing the fact Vettel is the OVERTAKER, it's up to him to make a clean pass. NK did nothing wrong he can move slightly, it was slight movement no malice intended nor was it a move akin to holding position.

Also Vettel was not completely past if he was when he cut Narain off they wouldn't have touched. Maybe if he waited a few more seconds he would have been well ahead to take the racing line but he wasn't he cut NK off they touched yet NK gets penalised. This is the pivotal moment, when Vettel moves across to take the racing line he wasn't far enough ahead to do it cleanly.

Any other series other than F1 there would have been no penalty but because of the usual politics involved the fact NK got one is a farce.

[mnmracer]

The racing line is relevant when talking lapping cars, I'm sorry you don't see that it is but that's your problem not mine.

The stewards don't see it that way either. Who's problem is that?

And youre still missing the fact Vettel is the OVERTAKER, it's up to him to make a clean pass. NK did nothing wrong he can move slightly, it was slight movement no malice intended nor was it a move akin to holding position.

Also Vettel was not completely past if he was when he cut Narain off they wouldn't have touched. Maybe if he waited a few more seconds he would have been well ahead to take the racing line but he wasn't he cut NK off they touched yet NK gets penalised. Any other series other than F1 there would have been no penalty but because of the usual politics involved the fact NK got one is a farce.

This is what the sporting regulations say about it:

20.5 As soon as a car is caught by another car which is about to lap it during the race the driver must allow the faster driver past at the first available opportunity.

That opportunity was available in frame 5. There is no talk whatsoever about racing lines in the regulations.
NK had the opportunity, yet steered in. Simple as 21+21=42

[bud]

It's in driver briefings, not in the regulations. Its etiquette basically. Just like the one move rule was always there in breifings but is now written in the rules. It's better for passing cars to know where the lapped car is going to be, if they were unpredictable in getting out the way we'd see more incidents. So its agreed the lapped cars stay online keep their speed so the lapping car can overtake with ease. Ofcourse if the car has reached his blue flag limit you might see him yield aggressively in slowing down but overall it shouldn't get to that.

And you think the stewards are supreme beings incapable of getting things wrong? I'm with the Hulk on this one he is a driver unlike the Stewards even with the driver representative they can still get it wrong. But needless to say Redbull would have been demanding action, Marko has since stated he has sent his managers to speak to HRT and Marussia about getting out the way.

But look! you have your view (slightly biased mind you) and that's fine... 21 + 21 = 24 for all I care. I'm happy with my view on this one. Racing incidents happen, and this was one! No need for systematically dissecting every millisecond.

[andrew]

Whilst mnmracer may have a biased view are you not just as biased Bub, only in the opposite direction?

[What's Burning?]

Equilibrium achieved? Perhaps not.

You're hearing it here first boys and girls. The further down the rabbit hole RB and Vettel slide this year, the more heated the outburst and shenanigans on and off the race track will get.

[Hammer278]

Again, the racing line is completely irrelevant, as is the suggestion Karthikeyan had to jump out of the way. Vettel was already past Karthikeyan when they both came out of the corner AND Vettel left Karthikeyan enough room on track. All Karthikeyan had to do, was not turn in more than necessary.

If both cars kept going as they did in frame 5, nothing would have happened and both would have had plenty of track space. No marbles, no white lines, nothing. Even you can't deny that between frame 5 and frame 9, Karthikeyan clearly moves towards Vettel.

I enlarged the part which you should have bolded, if he was already past...how was there contact?

Is it so difficult to see this as a racing incident? Can God Vettel do no wrong? The main case Narain has here is that Vettel's line was not the same as the cars in front of him. That already puts Vettel in bad light.

Narain did move across because he was at a part of the track which cars were NOT using....hence his point, he did not want to go off the road. Why did Vettel force him into a spot like that? As someone mentioned earlier, was he trying to bully Narain off the road in his fit to catch Hamilton? Or is he so stupid he doesn't know that that part of the track isn't a comfortable area for cars to drive on? You pick.

In the end I would give 70% of the blame to Vettel as he was not driving on the conventional racing line, and Narain 30% of the blame because maybe he could've slowed down a bit more and kept the car on track. But don't forget, the backmarkers are having their own race. Why should they slow down when they are bullied off the drive-able line? In the end Vettel got his just rewards, and maybe he'll use his brain a bit more when lapping cars from now onwards.

[zurich_allan]

Again, the racing line is completely irrelevant, as is the suggestion Karthikeyan had to jump out of the way. Vettel was already past Karthikeyan when they both came out of the corner AND Vettel left Karthikeyan enough room on track. All Karthikeyan had to do, was not turn in more than necessary.

If both cars kept going as they did in frame 5, nothing would have happened and both would have had plenty of track space. No marbles, no white lines, nothing. Even you can't deny that between frame 5 and frame 9, Karthikeyan clearly moves towards Vettel.

I enlarged the part which you should have bolded, if he was already past...how was there contact?

Is it so difficult to see this as a racing incident? Can God Vettel do no wrong? The main case Narain has here is that Vettel's line was not the same as the cars in front of him. That already puts Vettel in bad light.

Narain did move across because he was at a part of the track which cars were NOT using....hence his point, he did not want to go off the road. Why did Vettel force him into a spot like that? As someone mentioned earlier, was he trying to bully Narain off the road in his fit to catch Hamilton? Or is he so stupid he doesn't know that that part of the track isn't a comfortable area for cars to drive on? You pick.

In the end I would give 70% of the blame to Vettel as he was not driving on the conventional racing line, and Narain 30% of the blame because maybe he could've slowed down a bit more and kept the car on track. But don't forget, the backmarkers are having their own race. Why should they slow down when they are bullied off the drive-able line? In the end Vettel got his just rewards, and maybe he'll use his brain a bit more when lapping cars from now onwards.

Bold and underlined the relevant part here. That's the issue. The racing line, whether the stewards think so or not, is what is predictable. At close to 200mph, the cars being predictable in their movements is absolutely crucial and key to EVERY move that any car makes in F1 or any other motorsport. It is important for incidents like this, but also and more importantly from a safety perspective. This is why last minute dives up the inside are not allowed etc. Because the driver being overtaken cannot predict it coming.

Mistake number one - Vettel chose to make his overtake in an inappropriate place (already unpredictable and slightly odd), mistake two - Vettel took an unusual and unpredictable line, one different to every single other car on that straight (why?? nobody apart from Vettel can answer that one. I'd be interested actually to see his line through that corner at other points in the race to see if this line was the only time he did it - I seriously doubt it however). The result of this unpredictability was that an incident happened. If people make unpredictable movements at close to 200mph they cannot complain when the inevitable happens

Some people seriously don't understand how bad the marbles are to drive on if not on the racing line too. That much is clear by this thread. Have some of you actually seen the loose rubber on track at a race before?!?

[Ichabod]

Again, the racing line is completely irrelevant, as is the suggestion Karthikeyan had to jump out of the way. Vettel was already past Karthikeyan when they both came out of the corner AND Vettel left Karthikeyan enough room on track. All Karthikeyan had to do, was not turn in more than necessary.

If both cars kept going as they did in frame 5, nothing would have happened and both would have had plenty of track space. No marbles, no white lines, nothing. Even you can't deny that between frame 5 and frame 9, Karthikeyan clearly moves towards Vettel.

I enlarged the part which you should have bolded, if he was already past...how was there contact?

Is it so difficult to see this as a racing incident? Can God Vettel do no wrong? The main case Narain has here is that Vettel's line was not the same as the cars in front of him. That already puts Vettel in bad light.

Narain did move across because he was at a part of the track which cars were NOT using....hence his point, he did not want to go off the road. Why did Vettel force him into a spot like that? As someone mentioned earlier, was he trying to bully Narain off the road in his fit to catch Hamilton? Or is he so stupid he doesn't know that that part of the track isn't a comfortable area for cars to drive on? You pick.

In the end I would give 70% of the blame to Vettel as he was not driving on the conventional racing line, and Narain 30% of the blame because maybe he could've slowed down a bit more and kept the car on track. But don't forget, the backmarkers are having their own race. Why should they slow down when they are bullied off the drive-able line? In the end Vettel got his just rewards, and maybe he'll use his brain a bit more when lapping cars from now onwards.

Bold and underlined the relevant part here. That's the issue. The racing line, whether the stewards think so or not, is what is predictable. At close to 200mph, the cars being predictable in their movements is absolutely crucial and key to EVERY move that any car makes in F1 or any other motorsport. It is important for incidents like this, but also and more importantly from a safety perspective. This is why last minute dives up the inside are not allowed etc. Because the driver being overtaken cannot predict it coming.

Mistake number one - Vettel chose to make his overtake in an inappropriate place (already unpredictable and slightly odd), mistake two - Vettel took an unusual and unpredictable line, one different to every single other car on that straight (why?? nobody apart from Vettel can answer that one. I'd be interested actually to see his line through that corner at other points in the race to see if this line was the only time he did it - I seriously doubt it however). The result of this unpredictability was that an incident happened. If people make unpredictable movements at close to 200mph they cannot complain when the inevitable happens

Some people seriously don't understand how bad the marbles are to drive on if not on the racing line too. That much is clear by this thread. Have some of you actually seen the loose rubber on track at a race before?!?

Bravo the man talking sense

[scotty]

What exactly is the point of all this OTT analysis of one small incident? To try and justify Vettel's subsequent crying to the media or something?