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[LewEngBridewell]

At least according to HRT recruit Pedro de la Rosa. This is what he says with regards to the elite of F1's constructors.

Red Bull is not yet one of F1′s ‘big two’ teams, according to Pedro de la Rosa. The HRT driver admits his own Spanish employer is the “worst” in the field at present, but at the other end of the grid, he insists the “best” – Red Bull – is not yet one of the greatest.

“Formula One is in that respect very similar to the Spanish football league,” he is quoted by Marca sports daily. “There are two big clubs, Madrid and Barcelona, and (in F1) I would say they are Ferrari and McLaren.

“Red Bull, not yet. They are one of those teams that can win the cup, but I would dare to predict that in 20 years the big two will still be the big two,” added de la Rosa.

Of course, Williams and Lotus would once have been mentioned as all-time greats alongside Ferrari and McLaren, but in both cases, a subsequent decline has left reputations in need of restoration. Having said that, we mustn't forget this is not out of the ordinary, and Ferrari went winless (title-wise) from the late 1970s to the turn of the century.

Do we agree with Pedro? In other words, RBR are strong now, but in order to be one of the greatest, they'll have to still be there in decades to come, delivering the results. With murmerings from those at the top of Red Bull that the team will not tolerate a decline in form (marketing reasons most likely), it makes you wonder...

[Blackavar]

He's dead right. There will always be flash-in-the-pans and we shouldn't count Red Bull as one of the greats yet. Give 'em another 5 years at the top and then we'll talk.

[racechick]

They're not in the same class as Ferrari and mcLaren. They've had enormous success, which should be applauded.....but not in the same class.Not yet.

[killem2]

What other teams have done what redbull have done and then just left? I'm not a huge f1 history buff here, so I'd e curious to know.

[LewEngBridewell]

What other teams have done what redbull have done and then just left? I'm not a huge f1 history buff here, so I'd e curious to know.

Well, Red Bull have now got 2 titles under the belt. Which other teams have registered 2 titles? Renault are the most recent, with Fernando Alonso's success in 2005 and 2006. Where are Renault now? After dwindling form, the marque focuses on engine supply now, while the team has been re-branded Lotus.

Other teams to win 2 titles include Cooper and Brabham, both constructors having folded long ago. So there's a long way to go to match Ferrari and McLaren, in terms of long-running success... obviously, seeing as Red Bull only bought the team from Jaguar back at the end of 2004.

If RBR remain in the game, the next target is Lotus, with 7 titles. Only then, are you talking about being REALLY great!

[bud]

This new Lotus shouldn't really pick up the championship count of the real team from the past. After all the team from Enstones won titles under the Benetton name aswell as Renault and now they're Lotus. Tomorrow they could be Team Barbie!

[LewEngBridewell]

This new Lotus shouldn't really pick up the championship count of the real team from the past. After all the team from Enstones won titles under the Benetton name aswell as Renault and now they're Lotus. Tomorrow they could be Team Barbie!

Yeah the record books, with regard to the teams, are getting increasingly confusing. Taking the team that started life as Toleman for example, some sources group the collected results of Toleman, Benetton, Renault and now Lotus all together as one. Some separate Toleman and Benetton from Renault, and classify the results of Renault altogether as a sole car manufacturer (I.e. 1977 - 1985 and 2002 - 2011).

So various sources will offer different statistics with regards to Lotus. Some will add the current Lotus' achievements to the historical team's, while other sources will continue to add the results on from the Renault days.

It must be terribly confusing to the newer F1 fans.

[bud]

What's even more confusing Caterham as Lotus claimed Lotus's past success

[Hammer278]

This is the general consensus, McLaren and Ferrari are basically the backbone of F1 due to their longevity and success. For Redbull to join the frame, they need to carry on consistently winning races for another 10 years at least.

I considered Williams as part of the Big 3 until they dropped off the cliff....and it seems RB has a great chance of taking their place, if they stayed for a while more yet.

[Redthir]

This is the general consensus, McLaren and Ferrari are basically the backbone of F1 due to their longevity and success. For Redbull to join the frame, they need to carry on consistently winning races for another 10 years at least.

I considered Williams as part of the Big 3 until they dropped off the cliff....and it seems RB has a great chance of taking their place, if they stayed for a while more yet.

I completely agree about Williams. In the 90s they won more championships than any other team and remained competent until a downward spiral starting from 2004. And I agree about Red Bull with Pedro.

[LRW]

I notice none of the Redbull diehards have paid a visit to this thread?

Surely they cant all agree with this...?

[Hammer278]

I notice none of the Redbull diehards have paid a visit to this thread?

Surely they cant all agree with this...?

Maybe they agree and just can't bring themselves to say it. This thread is a pretty clear cut thing, it's hard to weasel your way around it.

[LRW]

Maybe they agree and just can't bring themselves to say it. This thread is a pretty clear cut thing, it's hard to weasel your way around it.

Well some of the stuff they come out with, I was surprised they hadnt comee in here, claiming how RBR WERE one of the greatest, because they have the second coming on their team...!

[LewEngBridewell]

Well, I'm sure they'll start being vocal, now the bait has been laid!

[LRW]

Well, I'm sure they'll start being vocal now the bait has been laid!

Its going to be rather boring of they dont.....