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[mnmracer]

In many a discussion, well, every discussion, about how good or bad Vettel really is, there is a usually large, very vocal group of people that dismiss the idea and say it's all just the car. Even when, like last year, both the McLaren boys won three times more races than Webber, Vettel's success is diminished to "it's the car". Even when experts say that the McLaren was in many races just as fast if not faster, "it's just the car". Even when... well, you get my point.

Looking at Alonso last year, who was also classes faster than his team mate, he was hailed for taking the Ferrari beyond its potential.

So the 'actual speed' of the Red Bull is measured by the fastest driver (it's the Red Bull's speed, not Vettel's) and the actual speed of the Ferrari is measured by the slowest driver (look how slow the Ferrari is in Massa's hands, Alonso is superduperamazing). And Vettel was actually more 'faster' over Webber (0.436s) than Alonso was over Massa (0.297s). But Vettel's success is still down to the car...

With the new season around the corner, this slanted argument is bount to come up again, so let's discuss right now, before we know anything about the speeds of the cars, under which criteria we can finally lay this discussion to rest and maybe finally accept what friend and foe in F1 (except Paul di Resta) have long since accepted: that Vettel is just a really fast driver.

[bud]

It's a combination of things, Vettel RB7 pirellis was a better combo than Webber RB7 pirellis. I don't think it was a case of Vettel pulling the car beyond its limits. As we saw the previous year Webber well and truly had Vettel covered a lot of the season. In motorsports tyres are everything.

Hearing fans make claims of a driver pulling the car beyond its limits is what starts to sound like fanboyism and quickly turns

[Big Azza]

Mate, I've been singing this same tune for a while now, particularly when comparing Vettel and Alonso. It just won't work.

The guy was hailed at Toro Rosso for his mechanical ability. It is well known that Vettel likes to stay back and work with his engineers. Vettel really knows how to set up a car well, and then he is flipping fast. I'm pretty pleased reading about Sir Moss' observation.

Vettel is the best qualifier in a generation and could (I believe will) become the greatest of all time. Why people write off his past team mate Bourdais as no comparison, beats me. A multiple Indycar winner and Le Mans veteran and Vettel wiped the floor with him.

Getting a Toro Rosso up to 4th in a race was no easy feat. And he did it with overtaking and brilliant strategy calls etc. Also we hear the argument that Vettel can't overtake (the argument goes something like "just because he's made one or two stick does not convince me"). Well I think Vettel only failed a couple of times in 2010, but other than that he has been a prolific overtaker. So I'd like to reverse that logic and say, just because Vettel failed a couple of times doesn't mean he's a bad overtaker.

I think Vettel will continue to lap at around 4 or 5 tenths quicker and continue to keep the monopoly of poles. But we have to see how good the car is. And Vettel will do his usual at almost every race:

1.Set up the car in Friday Practice, then crash it into a wall as part of a good luck ritual.
2. Saturday Practice - set up the car again
3. Saturday qually. Blitz everyone with one lap in Q3. Will start the race in P1.
4. Push hard at the start, establish a gap of about 8 secs and maintain it for the rest of the race.
5. Manage tires effectively.
6. Win the race, go ape-sh1t over the radio Yabba Dabba Doo!
7. The finger!

I would like Vettel to thrash the car and give it every thing it's worth. I would love to see him establishing 30 second leads or even greater. But Vettel likes to manage the risks and keep the tires and fuel economy for as long as possible.

That's the other thing - not only can he set up the car well, not only can he manage his tires well, not only can he hit consistent lap times, but he is also a fuel-economical driver!

And that amazing ability to go out and post a blazing fast qually lap without any mistakes EVERY weekend is a monster talent indeed. None of the driver can emulate that consistency!

As we saw the previous year Webber well and truly had Vettel covered a lot of the season.

I don't think we saw that at all bud. Webber was lucky. Vettel was faster than him, posted way more pole laps, led a lot of laps. He honestly looked set to win almost every single race if he had everything go his way.

A Vettel trounced him '09 as well!

[bud]

Lucky shut up would you
Spain Monaco turkey what about that string of races? All up until mr Marko stepped in.

[What's Burning?]

You have a lot of debatable points up there, hence the debates.

I never doubted Vettel's talent, it's clear that he's the best qualifier in the sport in the best capable qualifying car, and was able to turn pole after pole into win after win, get in front, get outside of the DRS window, and win. It was a formula that worked for him and the team. That's all, and there's little to debate there. So to extrapolate that Vettel is the best driver in the sport given that scenario is just as ludicrous as for his detractors to say that he's a no talent.

Webber had a lousy year and Vettel had a great year and that magnified the situation, but it wasn't like Vettel's 2010 championship season was that far off, and if you exclude the times Vettel's car failed him or he self destructed, he actually would have ended the season with a commanding lead. So in this sport it's next to impossible to do an apples to apples comparison.

In my opinion, it's clear that Vettel is a better driver than Webber, it's clear that Alonso is a better driver than Massa, and it's clear that Hamilton is a better qualifier than Button but Button is a smoother driver than Hamilton in their respective cars so the choice there is more personal.

I'd much rather see a season like 2010 again than a season like 2011. I'm sure most fans would agree.

[mrp101]

You know I always argue this with myself (in my head mostly).

I agree that the car is part of the equation, but its not the factor that makes Vettel faster than Webber. I agree 100% with the fact that Vettel knows how to get a car setup. The communication factor between drive/engineers/technicians cannot be overlooked. This relationship is the factor that decides how fast you will go.

Yes the car will be fast. If Newey's car proves to be dominant this year, I think Webber will be a lot closer to Vettel than we think. With all the new regs, I don't know how much more advantage Vettel has as far as knowledge of the chassis. I think the Vettel:Webber win ratio will be something like 3:1.

Vettel is undoubtedly has on intangibles that make him one of the most successful drivers out there.

[vlad]

Guess how the season starts!?

[youtube]NKmgS74Mcew[/youtube]

[geetface9]

Lucky shut up would you
Spain Monaco turkey what about that string of races? All up until mr Marko stepped in.

Agreed. In 2010 vettel held himself back with silly mistakes as much as the car's reliability. He would have had a lead without the car failures, but he did plenty of damage to races all on his own while webber made two huge @$$ mistakes; drinking too much red bull at valencia and accelerating on the kerb like a newb in korea.

I will agree that vettel is faster most of the time. Webber did beat him fair and square several times though in 2010. Don't forget that in 2011 though webber had no KERS for the first 4-5 races and finished no less than 5th in those races. Vettel's was intermittent, but it still worked some of the time. Yeah yeah he was still posting fast laps without it i know, i know, and I truly am a webber fanboy, yada yada yada i know... i hate vettel FML

I HATE VETTEL!! He has proved to me he's a good racer though, for the most part. Did I just say that?.........

[spankyham]

Helmut Marko has allocated Mark his RB8 for 2012, and just in case Mark manages to threaten Seb, even after they take his front wing it comes with pre-printed handgrips "maintain the gap"

[madbrad]

He doesn't have to be much faster than Webber to win a race. He just has to be .001 seconds ahead at the end.

[McLaren]

It's not a case of proving himself against Webber.We know he can beat him,but what has he ever done in a F1 car before ?(Webber that is).I don't think you will stop the sceptics until he has a world champion as a team mate.Something that might never happen,i.e take Schumacher for example.

[racechick]

Helmut Marko has allocated Mark his RB8 for 2012, and just in case Mark manages to threaten Seb, even after they take his front wing it comes with pre-printed handgrips "maintain the gap"

[Hammer278]

I agree with the OP to an extent....the way people hype up Alonso compared to Massa is amazing. Yeah, he did great last season...but outperforming the car? What is he, God? I don't think so, the natural laws of physics still apply to him as far as I'm concerned! Alonso did as good a job as the car could do, full stop. But there are at least 3-4 drivers on the grid who could've done that job as well.

Same thing with Vettel, I think he did as good a job as what that Redbull could do. Which is a fantastic achievement and what every driver dreams of doing at the start of the season. And as McLaren (the poster) says, what has Webber really achieved anyway? I personally don't care about the gap between Vettel and Webber, same as not caring about Alonso and Massa! "Massa"...lol.

[geetface9]

I agree with the OP to an extent....the way people hype up Alonso compared to Massa is amazing. Yeah, he did great last season...but outperforming the car? What is he, God? I don't think so, the natural laws of physics still apply to him as far as I'm concerned! Alonso did as good a job as the car could do, full stop.

Indeed. Alonso just makes the car reach it's limits while massa doesn't. So you're right, he's not outperforming anything, he's just gettin 100% and massa's gettin' idk...90%? somethin

[spankyham]

I agree with the OP to an extent....the way people hype up Alonso compared to Massa is amazing. Yeah, he did great last season...but outperforming the car? What is he, God? I don't think so, the natural laws of physics still apply to him as far as I'm concerned! Alonso did as good a job as the car could do, full stop. But there are at least 3-4 drivers on the grid who could've done that job as well.

Same thing with Vettel, I think he did as good a job as what that Redbull could do. Which is a fantastic achievement and what every driver dreams of doing at the start of the season. And as McLaren (the poster) says, what has Webber really achieved anyway? I personally don't care about the gap between Vettel and Webber, same as not caring about Alonso and Massa! "Massa"...lol.

Wow Hammer! A red-letter day indeed, you giving a fantastic compliment to Fernando, I think I'll frame your words

Let me quote "Alonso did as good a job as the car could do .... Same thing with Vettel, I think he did as good a job as what that Redbull could do. Which is a fantastic achievement"