FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

Discuss the sport you love with other motorsport fans

Formula One related discussion.
#283343
While it became pretty obvious early on in the season that Sebastian Vettel would probably become world champion again, a much more interesting fight was going on between Vettel and a long-retired driver: Nigel Mansell. In 1992, in the superb Williams FW14B, Nigel Mansell managed a record-breaking 14 pole positions in one season. A record no one even came really close to in the next two decades. Until 2011, when Sebastian Vettel started from pole position in 7 of the first 8 races.

At the qualifying for the 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, Sebastian Vettel finally managed to get that magic number: pole position number 14. With the race in Brazil still on the calendar, Vettel will be able to break Mansell's record, but for now, he has equalled it.

ImageImage

Note #1: the number of races
There are two notes to this record however, the most obvious being: in 1992 there were 16 races, while Abu Dhabi is race 18 in 2011. Nigel Mansell managed 14 pole positions in just 16 races in 1992, while in 2011, it took Sebastian Vettel 18 races to get his 14th pole of the season. If you look at it purely numerically, Mansell has the better record in this. However, dismissing Vettel's equalling of Mansell's record purely on this ground, is a little short-sighted, because it also works the other way around. Juan Manuel Fangio grabbed 6 out of 8 pole positions in 1956. How many poles could he have gotten if he had 16 races like Nigel Mansell? This is not saying that such records are completely bogus; they are not. Given the circumstances of that year, these drivers managed an amazing feat, which resulted in 14 pole positions in one long season.

Note #2: the speed of the car
LINK: Table of qualifying time differentials
What I find more interesting however, is looking at which car they drove. Both the Williams FW14B and the RB7 were designed by Adrian Newey, and both were considered the fastest car of that season. Even just looking at qualifying pace however, there is an enormous difference between the dominance of the two cars over the rest of the field. While second Williams-driver Riccardo Patrese relatively easily secured second place in the championship, Mark Webber has been playing catch-up most of this year, currently being in fourth place and needing a miracle to close the 19-point gap to Jenson Button in the last two races.

But that's race pace. With Webber at least securing 3 pole positions this year, the Red Bull must have great qualifying pace right? Well, yes, they have a good qualifying pace, but the numbers don't quite show what's going on there. In 1992, the biggest difference between one of Mansell's poles and a non-Williams car was 2,8 seconds at the British Grand Prix, while the Williams was only not the fastest average car in 2 qualifyings. In 1992, the biggest difference between one of Vettel's poles and a non-Red Bull car was 0,8 seconds at the Australian Grand Prix, while the Red Bull was not the fastest average car in 7 qualifyings.

In 1992, Nigel Mansell's average qualifying time was 1.1 seconds faster than the nearest non-Williams driver. In 2011, Sebastian Vettel's average qualifying time is only 0.2 seconds faster than the nearest non-Red Bull driver, who is more often than not in front of Webber. In 1992, the average qualifying time of the Williams team was 0.97 seconds faster, while in 2011, the average qualifying time of the Red Bull team is only 0.16 seconds faster. The advantage of Nigel Mansell's Williams was 6 times greater than that of Sebastian Vettel's Red Bull. If Mansell made a mistake, he could still train pole position, while a mistake on Vettel's end could have most often cost him that pole.

In conclusion
Working with statistics, means working with variables and margins. It is common that some tracks are better suited to a car than others, whether it's 1992 or 2011. Simply saying: Mansell only took 16 races, thus his record is worth more, is missing the bigger picture. Had the British and German Grand Prix for instance been raced at the end of the season, Vettel would have had 14 out of 16. Had Nigel Mansell's season been 18 races long (where we're at now), and there were two races in the middle of the season that didn't suit him, he would have had the same result as Vettel. With just two races difference in a sport where every track means a different advantage or disadvantage, it is statistically irrelevant to say that Mansell's record is worth more because of the number of races.

If anything, Vettel's record could be considered worth more because he did not have the massive advantage that Mansell had over the other cars. The Red Bull was never 3 seconds faster in qualifying than the McLaren or the Ferrari, as it often came down to a few tenths at most. The Williams FW14B was lightning fast at every track, while Vettel managed pole positions at a number of tracks where the Red Bull was not the fastest car. Nigel Mansell managed 14 pole positions in 1992 because he could afford to make mistakes. Sebastian Vettel managed 14 pole positions in 2011 because he never made a mistake.
#283344
Good analysis. Especially the bit about how much time the Williams of 1992 had in its pocket during qualifying sessions.

My gut feel is that Vettel is something very special over a single lap and should probably be considered a better out and out qualifier than Mansell.

The only thing I would challenge is Patrese didnt "relatively easily" secure second place in 1992. He was only 3 points ahead of Schumacher and 6 and 7 points ahead of Senna & Berger respectively, come the season end. In fact his final placing is not so wildly out of synch with Webber's this year.
#283354
Again, a well put together piece, but as with a few other of these types of articles it doesn't tell the whole story either - it's one person's choice of variables, not all of the variables, which simply aren't possible to normalise in any case.

An example of this is the nature of the newer tracks today. What do I mean? Well in 1992, a large number of tracks used did not have huge run-offs, and a car would be punished even if there were run-offs, as they would generally either be natural grass or filled with inescapable kitty litter. So the punishment afforded to a driver either going off line or making a mistake were often much more costly - much more so than today. Relevance? Well, Vettel in 2011 can push to the maximum. knowing that the likliehood of serious damage to his car or himself is nowhere near as likely than it unquestionably would have been in 1992. For Mansell to have been so far ahead (certainly of Patrese in the sister car - and Patrese was a very good driver, better than Webber in a similar comparison if you ask me, but that's just my opinion)) indicates that he simply ignored this risk at that time in favour of ensuring his dominance. Others may not have taken this same risk so consistently. Today - everyone can and does take that risk of going to the ragged edge due to the lack of consequences of a mistake, hence are more likely to be closer than in the past.

Now I am not saying that Mansell's record has any more or less validity than any potential Vettel one - not at all. What I am saying is that the OP's analysis is by no means complete, and that 'statistics' and qualitative analysis can be used to justify a decision for either driver depending on how you present your case. There is a case for both to potentially be more valid than the other, even in the simple example I've just given.

Too many variables to give a certain answer, it's just not possible.

This is why I simply don't pay attention to records unless they are so conclusive that no matter the variables it may be inarguable. And there aren't many of them...
#283381
I'm very biased but believe Ayrton Senna's 13/16 two years running 1988-89 with a team mate like Alain Prost is more impressive than both. :D


Probably better call I'll give that :wink:


:yes::yes:
#283411
Does anyone know where and when the biggest single margin from pole to 2nd on the grid was recorded? I'd be interested to know that.

For me the craziest quali statistic is Fangio's front row starts percentage - 48 out of 52 races, insane! And something like 30 of em were poles, over 50%.
#283413
Does anyone know where and when the biggest single margin from pole to 2nd on the grid was recorded? I'd be interested to know that.

For me the craziest quali statistic is Fangio's front row starts percentage - 48 out of 52 races, insane! And something like 30 of em were poles, over 50%.


Surely it must be that pole lap Senna did at Monacco when he was 'in the zone'. Two seconds ahead of second place.
#283415
Does anyone know where and when the biggest single margin from pole to 2nd on the grid was recorded? I'd be interested to know that.

For me the craziest quali statistic is Fangio's front row starts percentage - 48 out of 52 races, insane! And something like 30 of em were poles, over 50%.


Surely it must be that pole lap Senna did at Monacco when he was 'in the zone'. Two seconds ahead of second place.



That would be my guess as well ,certainly since I've been watching :thumbup:
#283416
According to the site i've found the Monaco '88 gap was 1.5s, at Silvertstone in '92 Mansell got pole by 1.9s :eek: Gonna see if i can find better than that.

See our F1 related articles too!