FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[darwin dali]

Look at it this way, If I take my car in for an MOT* today and it passes. It does not mean that it would pass a test tommorow

*MOT Is a test to check a vehicle is road worthy in the UK, I am sure most countries have them but with other names.

TÜV (Technischer Überwachungs-Verein) in Germany, MFK (Motorfahrzeugkontrolle) in Switzerland, State Inspection in the US (at least in my state that is).

thanks hunni bunni

Anytime sweetie, anytime

[bud]

Look at it this way, If I take my car in for an MOT* today and it passes. It does not mean that it would pass a test tommorow

*MOT Is a test to check a vehicle is road worthy in the UK, I am sure most countries have them but with other names.

TÜV (Technischer Überwachungs-Verein) in Germany, MFK (Motorfahrzeugkontrolle) in Switzerland, State Inspection in the US (at least in my state that is).

I think each state of Australia has their own nice little abbreviated name for it too.

[bigpat]

Yes we do. In Victoria it is simply a RWC ( roadworthy certificate).
I believe that racecars are designed in part to pass a rule and tests. Rules are generally governed by a defined, easily measured value, either a simple measurement, or a weight. However some rules are only enforceable by a physical test, so if you pass the test, you pass the rule.

This is just the nature if the beast. Every single team knows this, and they all have the same opportunities to optimize their car within the rules. You can't punish a team for being smarter....

[acosmichippo]

Right, tests are just the quantification of the rules. Rule says "part can't move". Test says "actually, it can't move more than Xmm under XN of force."

[bigpat]

Right, tests are just the quantification of the rules. Rule says "part can't move". Test says "actually, it can't move more than Xmm under XN of force."

....and there it is! Ka-ching!!!!!!

[f1usa]

Right, tests are just the quantification of the rules. Rule says "part can't move". Test says "actually, it can't move more than Xmm under XN of force."

....and there it is! Ka-ching!!!!!!

bigpat, do you think it possible some teams are fabricating parts using fibre-metal laminate (FML) technology and shape memory alloys (SMA) that can morph shape and return to origional spec. Early in season the Redbulls front end would run super low in qualifying.

[bigpat]

That's amazing stuff....
The use of these materials would be restricted by the 80 Gpa limit of Young's Modulus, first and foremost.

Formula 1 teams, and the industry as a whole, work very closely with the aerospace industry to exploit technologies such as this. Ferrari use GE, and McLaren work with BAE (British Aerospace)..

Off the top of my head.....
I can see FML's using carbon fibre and titanium in flexure pivots on the wishbones, helping eliminate the bonding issues prevalent with the 2 as separate entities.
Possibly as re-inforcement for roll hoops, and crush structures.

I don't how how easy this is to mould into small complex shapes etc.

SMA's in theory could be used in making the splitters, allowing them to bend up. The only concern is how much heat you can generate to allow it to bend upwards, remembering that area gets plenty of cool air going around it.

... However I could see it being used to alter the ride height of the car. High for full tanks and lower as it burns off, by allowing some part of the gearbox structure to yield with heat. The trick is to control how it does it in response to fuel load. See what you've done, now I've got the sketchpad out, and a million ideas in my head.......

It's not illegal, as its well known metals change properties due to heat. Magnesium loses stiffness at 100 deg C. Makes me wonder why some use a "soft" metal for a gearcase, where the suspension mounts to it....

[f1usa]

That's amazing stuff....
The use of these materials would be restricted by the 80 Gpa limit of Young's Modulus, first and foremost.

Formula 1 teams, and the industry as a whole, work very closely with the aerospace industry to exploit technologies such as this. Ferrari use GE, and McLaren work with BAE (British Aerospace)..

Off the top of my head.....
I can see FML's using carbon fibre and titanium in flexure pivots on the wishbones, helping eliminate the bonding issues prevalent with the 2 as separate entities.
Possibly as re-inforcement for roll hoops, and crush structures.

I don't how how easy this is to mould into small complex shapes etc.

SMA's in theory could be used in making the splitters, allowing them to bend up. The only concern is how much heat you can generate to allow it to bend upwards, remembering that area gets plenty of cool air going around it.

... However I could see it being used to alter the ride height of the car. High for full tanks and lower as it burns off, by allowing some part of the gearbox structure to yield with heat. The trick is to control how it does it in response to fuel load. See what you've done, now I've got the sketchpad out, and a million ideas in my head.......

It's not illegal, as its well known metals change properties due to heat. Magnesium loses stiffness at 100 deg C. Makes me wonder why some use a "soft" metal for a gearcase, where the suspension mounts to it....

To control a specific part you would need DC voltage to heat - a thermocouple to measure temperature - and a transducer to measure deflection/movement. Sorry about that sketchpad thing but I've been thinking about the use of this technology since early this season.

[bigpat]

I think that you be in trouble here.The primary function of that system would be to alter the shape of the bodywork, which is meant to be rigid. I don't know how you could explain this one away.

I also this system would be deemed as an "active", which banned. It is active, because it uses closed-loop feedback to alter its movement. I think you would have to try and do this passively. The fact there is a heating element is the snag. If it was heated via track scraping, or heat soak from the engine etc...

[acosmichippo]

yeah, might as well be hydraulic-powered.

[stonemonkey]

Right, tests are just the quantification of the rules. Rule says "part can't move". Test says "actually, it can't move more than Xmm under XN of force."

No.

'it can't move more than Xmm under XN of force' is a rule.

The test is physically done on the car to find out if the rule is adhered too.

Not every part of the car is tested even though they are governed by rules.

[bigpat]

The point remains, if it passes the test on the day, it is deemed to comply with the rules.

[spankyham]

The point remains, if it passes the test on the day, it is deemed to comply with the rules.

And that's the only point that counts.

Another couple of questions bigpat if I may...

If you were race director back at the start of the season
1) and you watch the RB7 front wing and the video of the bendy nose would you have believed that car was in compliance with this rule "any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance must remain immobile"?

2) if yes to 1) then would you use this rule "the FIA reserves the right to introduce further load/deflection tests on any part of the bodywork which appears to be (or is suspected of), moving whilst the car is in motion" and what new testing would you have implemented?

[Hammer278]

That's amazing stuff....
The use of these materials would be restricted by the 80 Gpa limit of Young's Modulus, first and foremost.

Formula 1 teams, and the industry as a whole, work very closely with the aerospace industry to exploit technologies such as this. Ferrari use GE, and McLaren work with BAE (British Aerospace)..

Off the top of my head.....
I can see FML's using carbon fibre and titanium in flexure pivots on the wishbones, helping eliminate the bonding issues prevalent with the 2 as separate entities.
Possibly as re-inforcement for roll hoops, and crush structures.

I don't how how easy this is to mould into small complex shapes etc.

SMA's in theory could be used in making the splitters, allowing them to bend up. The only concern is how much heat you can generate to allow it to bend upwards, remembering that area gets plenty of cool air going around it.

... However I could see it being used to alter the ride height of the car. High for full tanks and lower as it burns off, by allowing some part of the gearbox structure to yield with heat. The trick is to control how it does it in response to fuel load. See what you've done, now I've got the sketchpad out, and a million ideas in my head.......

It's not illegal, as its well known metals change properties due to heat. Magnesium loses stiffness at 100 deg C. Makes me wonder why some use a "soft" metal for a gearcase, where the suspension mounts to it....

Bigpat, do us a favour and post more will you.

[kerc]

If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'.

This guy agrees.