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[bud]

I think Sebs proven he is more than just a mere driver this year. I don't subscribe to the Flavio view.

[Hamilonso]

I dont think ive ever seen anyone bar ridiculous haters say hes "mere", he just isnt as good as at least two others.



I dont REFUSE to believe Vettel is all that and a bag of potato chips, i CANT believe it because i havent seen him prove it, 2 time wdc is too black and white, give him a Alonso/Hamilton teamie, hell give him Button as a teammate, then put the other two in an equally paced car, and see if he can beat all three to the title, thats the mettle of the best of the best, Vettel actually hasnt had a chance to prove that.

[hypertek]

WHy does everyone desire to drive for ferrari? I know ive heard that a few times in f1 broadcasts, but ferrari isnt even the best time right now.. I suppose its due to their legacy as one of the oldest teams I guess.. Id love to drive for mclaren, williams and renault (if the later 2 where good, they got some deep history)

[Big Azza]

I dont think ive ever seen anyone bar ridiculous haters say hes "mere", he just isnt as good as at least two others.



I dont REFUSE to believe Vettel is all that and a bag of potato chips, i CANT believe it because i havent seen him prove it, 2 time wdc is too black and white, give him a Alonso/Hamilton teamie, hell give him Button as a teammate, then put the other two in an equally paced car, and see if he can beat all three to the title, thats the mettle of the best of the best, Vettel actually hasnt had a chance to prove that.

And that is the same tune that has been echoing since the dawn of time in F1 racing.

For instance it absolutely amazes me that some people say that Stirling Moss was the best driver in history... - yet when I see the stats I see domination from his team mate - one Juan Manuel Fangio.

It won't ever happen - Vettel won't ever be recognised as the greatest, even if he had Alonso/Hamilton as his team mate. The excuses will come, for either fanbase. And whenever one driver is consistently better, the blame then focusses to his team mate either not being up to scratch, or that is car setup isn't the best.

For instance, Hamilton beat a 2-time world champion, yet now he is being obliterated this year by his team mate. Hamilton fans will have excuses for him, Hamilton-haters will say "There is the proof he was lucky in his first couple of years... etc. etc. etc." Such is the unpredictabilty of F1 racing.

In my opinion as a Vettel fan, doesn't need to prove anything more - he proved what he needed in STR with a 4 Time Champ-Car Series Winner, Formula 3000 champion and Le Mans Veteran, Sebastian Bourdais as a team mate. He has also proved it by comprehensively beating Team Mate Mark Webber, who everyone thought was a fantastically capable driver (myself included) until this year (myself included).

So - you guys can ask for whatever you want from Vettel - but I'm sure many are the type who attribute everything Vettel does to the car, yet they want unlimited development in F1 - so in effect races will always be decided by the car.

Vettel should theoretically have won comprehensively last year, because he apparently had the car to do it, but then that same car was responsible for a lot of DNF's - so is it the car really that great?

Alonso is a fantastic driver, and so was Massa (theoretically up until his accident, or theoretically up until Alonso became his team mate). Unfortunately by rubbishing Massa, this helps many to diminish what type of driver Alonso is. Because either Alonso is only as quick as the car and Massa is slow, or Alonso is better than the car, and Massa is only as quick as the car.

The same thing is said with Vettel. It doesn't make sense. We say Webber is slow and Vettel is as quick as the car - but what about the concept that Webber is as quick as the car, and Vettel's balls are bigger than Webbers?

And then we have those who say that Vettel is only as quick as the car, but Alonso is in a league of his own? It makes no sense to me.

[racechick]

I dont think what you say is true. Of course people will have their favourite drivers and will think they are he best, thats probably why they support that driver. But those same fans can still respect skills in drivers they dont much like.Im not keen on Alonso but that doesnt stop me considering him a top three driver. There are three top drivers in a slight league of their own and placing those 1st 2nd and 3rd will come down to personal preference for their talent, style and skills.

[andrew]

WHy does everyone desire to drive for ferrari?

Careful you don't get a lecture from AKR.

However, I agree with you. They are just another team and surely it is better to join a team that is in a position to win rather than joining a team that are always telling everyone that they have a God given right to win and are the 3rd fastest only.

[Hammer278]

WHy does everyone desire to drive for ferrari? I know ive heard that a few times in f1 broadcasts, but ferrari isnt even the best time right now.. I suppose its due to their legacy as one of the oldest teams I guess.. Id love to drive for mclaren, williams and renault (if the later 2 where good, they got some deep history)

I wonder about it as well. And whats the big deal about their history? They SUCKED for 25 years just rolling around the grid completing the numbers required to compete, and only came to the fore when Todt, Brawn, Michael...basically half the Benetton workforce transferred there.

Plus their memorable races like Austria 2001, Austria 2002, Indianapolis 2002. Not to mention their reputation of being the ultimate whiners when not in a winning position, simply trying to DSQ/penalize other drivers and teams to gain an advantage, and their self proclaimed 'deep' racing pedigree (dont make me laugh)

To cap it off, the story of how Lamborghini approached Ferrari long ago when Lambos were a tractor company, and Ferrari told them to F off. And now guess who's Ferraris no.1 rival. Ferrari is a team that has raced for a long time yeah, but also been b*tchslapped multiple times in their history, I mean b*tchslapped good.

[Hamilonso]

Perhaps Big Azza this quote within your post " Vettel wont ever be recognised as the greatest" is all that needs to be said.Vettel fans believing hes done enough to prove hes the greatest ever driver is the sole reason nobody wants to give him any credit.Heres a fancy list i made of both to show why i think theyre better.

Hamilton;

- 9 consecutive podium finishes from his very first race
- Spent first Monaco Grand Prix being told not to overtake Alonso for the win
- Finished a minute plus ahead of anyone after starting 4th at British Grand Prix 2008
- Lost the title to arguably team f*ck ups in his first year against ALonso teammate, Raikonnen Ferrari and Massa Ferrari- First. Year.
- Won the second year despite riduculously biased Ferrari decisions in fairytale fashion
- Regarded by most as the best racer of the bunch, ridiculously talented in racecraft, notably overtaking.
- Despite the poor car in 2009 he and the team turned it into a race winner, outscoring everyone in the second half of the season.
- Has beaten a two time wdc and 1 time wdc hes had as teammates, the latter comfortably
- Reguarly outualifies a teammte world champion by around .3/.4 seconds, even a second at a race i forget lol
- Has won from beyond the first row of the grid
- Outperforms his car easily regularly splitting better cars (Brawn, Red Bull) drivers on the podium.


Alonso;

- Outperforms his car every race, finishing where it shouldnt
- Toppled the Schumacher regime, twice.
- Great speed is matched by a ridiculously leveled head
- Most tactically astute driver in F1
- Best team leader in F1
- Matched Hamilton
-Has also won from beyond the first row of the grid
- Bar rookie year has never been beaten on points by any teammate
- Beat Raikonnen in his Mclaren, though unreliable a faster car nonetheless.
- Dragged a Renault in 2008/9 to much better positions then it deserved.



I dont think Vettel matches their accomplisments and accolades.

The question you gotta ask yourself is, that ^ is the opinion of most of the F1 world, that those two are better then Vettel, now are you going to cry conspiracy or make a little Vettel fanclub and spend every tuesday evening meeting discussing how your more knowledgable then everyone else, or ask yourself why it is the case.

[bud]

- Toppled the Schumacher regime, twice.

first time was between Kimi and himself. Schumacher didn't have the machinery. so whilst technically he was the first champion in 5 years other than Schumi. I wouldn't really say he toppled Schumi as that season was what it was, Renault Vs McLaren.

[Hamilonso]

- Toppled the Schumacher regime, twice.

first time was between Kimi and himself. Schumacher didn't have the machinery. so whilst technically he was the first champion in 5 years other than Schumi. I wouldn't really say he toppled Schumi as that season was what it was, Renault Vs McLaren.

Of course, i meant it like, first year he ended the run, second year Schumacher came back and he proved even with the car Alonso could beat him,

Schumacher didnt have a chance in 2005, but i dont feel sorry for him for it given previous years

[andrew]

- Toppled the Schumacher regime, twice.

first time was between Kimi and himself. Schumacher didn't have the machinery. so whilst technically he was the first champion in 5 years other than Schumi. I wouldn't really say he toppled Schumi as that season was what it was, Renault Vs McLaren.

Tyres were a big factor as well. If I remember correctly, Ferrari were the only team on Bridgestone that were in a position to give good feedback. The others were Jordan and Minardi and they were nowhere in 2005 and 2006.

[darsea1973]

Firstly, why would Vettel leave Red Bull? They are, by far, the class act of F1.
Secondly, in no way can you see Vettel accepting number 2 status at any other team.

[bud]

Tyres were a big factor as well. If I remember correctly, Ferrari were the only team on Bridgestone that were in a position to give good feedback. The others were Jordan and Minardi and they were nowhere in 2005 and 2006.

Tyres were everything, the Ferrari car was good it just didn't have the tyres. But Ferrari shot themselves in the foot in regards to only two other teams giving feed back. Bridgestone were favouring Ferrari in making tyres specific for them at the expense of the other teams, so the likes of McLaren jumped ship to Michelin to get a fair go.