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[Drthjustice]

I don't think this thread is going in any direction at all however, I'm also going to post my strongly worded opinion.

I'm seeing a two-faced approach here. People are criticising the state of F1 for Vettel driving off into the distance and ruining the sport, yet they expect Massa to just pull over and let Hamilton past? What if Button held Vettel up?

If Hamilton is such a fantastic overtaker, I'm sure he knows that drivers are not going to make it easy for him. Massa did nothing untowards Hamilton there - it was all Hamilton's fault. For once I encourage Massa to state his opinion and hope that he sticks by it without retracting it on Twitter. Hamilton is obviously not learning from his various penalties - so drivers also getting in there and stating there opinion is just stepping up the attack on Hamilton's dangerous driving. Massa was on for at least a 6th place finish - he would have been fine for Hamilton to overtake him. But Hamilton needs to earn that overtake. Bloody hell, if Massa pulled over how much more so would we be criticising his driving ability? Hamilton just needs to wait for the right time.

Hamilton is great for the sport, he pulls off squillions of overtakes all the time, against fast and slow drivers. But he needs to be penalised when he gets it wrong, as he not only ruins his own race, but he ruins the race for others. The stewards and the other drivers do not want dangerous drivers in the sport - every time I see Hamilton getting more penalties I remember this guy:

Super Aguri confirmed on May 10th that the Formula One Permanent Bureau has withdrawn Yuji Ide's super license and he will not be able to race in F1 again this season. After an accident at Imola, when he pushed the MF1 of Christijan Albers into a barrel roll, Ide was replaced by Franck Montagny in Europe.

Ide had scant time in the car before the start of the season and the plan was to give him more mileage on the test track with a view of returning to competition once he had more experience. However, with the loss of his super license he will not be back in F1 this year.
"It is with sadness and regret that the team accepts this decision, however Aguri Suzuki and A.Company (Japan) shall continue to seek driving opportunities for Yuji and hopefully a path back into Formula One," said a statement from Super Aguri.
Montagny will continue in the second race seat for the Spanish and Monaco Grands Prix while "discussions with a number of parties continue regarding the permanent positions of second race seat and third driver within the team."

Could you imagine Hamilton receiving similar punishment? Tbh, if Hamilton is not learning from the numerous penalties, the criticism of his colleagues, his managers, and former racers then he deserves a bigger punishment - starting with an exclusion from the next race. If he still doesn't get the message, then his super-license should be withdrawn and he goes elsewhere. Seriously, how many more penalties will it take before enough is enough?

Vettel had two clumsy accidents last year, and recovered by year's end. But Hamilton? What's wrong with him?

Good on Massa. Last night a friend who I was watching the race with said that the drivers are corporate in the post-race press conference. Where's the personality?

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Also as a side note, did anyone notice how both Red Bull drivers made a special effort to praise Renault? Looks like they are being paid big bucks to mention "Renault Engines are reliable." Another demonstration of how F1 is all about the money and sponsors. But good on Renault - they deserve it.

Don't be surprised if next year we see the Renault logo featuring more prominently on the Red Bull car. We could do with seeing less bulls on that car.

I'm having trouble understanding the logic of this statement. You praise him for being such a great passer and great for the sport then say if he gets it wrong then he should be excluded? I really hope that i'm just misunderstanding what you were trying to say. F1 more than anything is a sport of taking chances and some times your chance isn't going to pay off just like everything else in life. Hamilton isn't the only one who makes mistakes and crashes into people. We see other drivers do it every race. I really have trouble understanding the attitude of people who want to have their cake and eat it too with hamilton. You can't say "lewis, we want you to go out there and make some spectacular passes to thrill everyone. But, if you crash then, well I'm sorry we'll have to exclude you from the next race or the season". How is a driver supposed to function under those conditions?

[bud]

Agh it's just Lewis. Some fans are just morons with no idea.

[Big Azza]

I'm having trouble understanding the logic of this statement. You praise him for being such a great passer and great for the sport then say if he gets it wrong then he should be excluded? I really hope that i'm just misunderstanding what you were trying to say. F1 more than anything is a sport of taking chances and some times your chance isn't going to pay off just like everything else in life. Hamilton isn't the only one who makes mistakes and crashes into people. We see other drivers do it every race. I really have trouble understanding the attitude of people who want to have their cake and eat it too with hamilton. You can't say "lewis, we want you to go out there and make some spectacular passes to thrill everyone. But, if you crash then, well I'm sorry we'll have to exclude you from the next race or the season". How is a driver supposed to function under those conditions?

Hi mate. I'm a fan of Hamilton. More so Vettel, but still a fan.

1. Yes Hamilton is a great overtaker. Great for the sport if he gets it right. But if he continues to ruin other people's races then he needs further punishment. There has to be a fine line. If there isn't a fine line than he shouldn't be in the sport. But he wasn't crash-happy as this last year, was he? And he was still an exciting driver. So he's in a phase. And well-meaning people need to beat it out of him. That's all I'm saying.
2. You are correct. Other drivers also make mistakes and learn (e.g. Vettel last year). Hamilton needs to learn from his mistakes and move one. But he's not learning. And obviously the same punishment over and over again is not helping him.
3. Excluding drivers should be encouraged. This isn't demolition derby, it racing and you can race wheel-to-wheel and even have contact at times. But remember Monaco? Both Massa and Maldonado retired, whereas Hamilton continued on. It's not very fair at all. Yes there are racing incidents. They can be tolerated. But if you keep getting called into the Stewards's office, and everyone in the world of F1 are criticising you, alarm bells should start ringing. Hopefully this race is the last straw and Hamilton can answer all his critics with a calm and collected victory.

[bud]

f*** me Azza you're just perpetuating the Hamilton hater mystique. His mistake with Massa was not a deliberate contrived act like you lot make it out to be. Punishing him for it? He got a bloody drive through that IS the punishment. What you're suggesting stinks of over policing and also non parity among the drivers.

[hypertek]

Massa is just pissed that he couldn't make up that much ground that Hamilton did and yet Hamilton had more against him (tires, pit for wing, drive through penalty )

At least he did not get taken out at the very begining like when Senna botched up the start at spa.

Im joking. Was still a great race to watch.. Had its thrills.

[darwin dali]

Before it gets deleted off Youtube, just wanted to share this for who missed it:
[youtube]xIAlGCT-MSA[/youtube]

Look at Lewis eyes after he did that if looks could kill.

[youtube]LKb9XQ39-zc&feature=related[/youtube]

[Hammer278]

I'm having trouble understanding the logic of this statement. You praise him for being such a great passer and great for the sport then say if he gets it wrong then he should be excluded? I really hope that i'm just misunderstanding what you were trying to say. F1 more than anything is a sport of taking chances and some times your chance isn't going to pay off just like everything else in life. Hamilton isn't the only one who makes mistakes and crashes into people. We see other drivers do it every race. I really have trouble understanding the attitude of people who want to have their cake and eat it too with hamilton. You can't say "lewis, we want you to go out there and make some spectacular passes to thrill everyone. But, if you crash then, well I'm sorry we'll have to exclude you from the next race or the season". How is a driver supposed to function under those conditions?

Hi mate. I'm a fan of Hamilton. More so Vettel, but still a fan.

1. Yes Hamilton is a great overtaker. Great for the sport if he gets it right. But if he continues to ruin other people's races then he needs further punishment. There has to be a fine line. If there isn't a fine line than he shouldn't be in the sport. But he wasn't crash-happy as this last year, was he? And he was still an exciting driver. So he's in a phase. And well-meaning people need to beat it out of him. That's all I'm saying.
2. You are correct. Other drivers also make mistakes and learn (e.g. Vettel last year). Hamilton needs to learn from his mistakes and move one. But he's not learning. And obviously the same punishment over and over again is not helping him.
3. Excluding drivers should be encouraged. This isn't demolition derby, it racing and you can race wheel-to-wheel and even have contact at times. But remember Monaco? Both Massa and Maldonado retired, whereas Hamilton continued on. It's not very fair at all. Yes there are racing incidents. They can be tolerated. But if you keep getting called into the Stewards's office, and everyone in the world of F1 are criticising you, alarm bells should start ringing. Hopefully this race is the last straw and Hamilton can answer all his critics with a calm and collected victory.

I think you don't really know what you're talking about. Or, you're not putting across what you're actually thinking correctly in text.

Lewis hasn't made the same mistake over and over...its been different accidents. Sometimes he goes for a gap which is tight but doable, only for the driver in front to close the door at the last minute, ie. Massa and Maldonodo in Monaco...classified as Lewis' mistakes, okay fine.

This time he was on the outside and cut in too early and clipped Massa's wing. These are classified as RACING incidents. Have you honestly seen this kind of crap getting penalties in other formulas? Cart (before it died), Indy500, any other open wheel racing where there's contact, even if the car which caused it didn't get affected (while the 'victim' did) are NOT penalized. They encourage racing over there, and we watch the sport to see PASSING...and drivers on the limit, not just cars going around in circles following each other.

There's a certain element of risk in a pass, and Lewis is the most daring on the grid right now to take those risks. Possibilities of accidents increase with more risk, its normal.

BTW, aren't you the guy who said you enjoy Qualifying sessions more than the Race? Maybe I'm wasting my time here...

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

...1. Yes Hamilton is a great overtaker....

Is? You mean was. At Monza he couldn't overtake a pensioner. Now he's just the Queen of Denial.

...His mistake with Massa was not a deliberate contrived act....

So you admit he's a cock-up. At least that's one thing we can agree on.

Unless and until Hamilton holsters the J'accuse finger and comes to understand he's the father and owner of his own mistakes, his life is not going to get much smoother.

[bud]

If you want to call it that then that's cool, next mistake you make in life, sport career what ever best use your own terminology and call yourself a chicken up!

[FerrariFan63]

I hope we get strong challenges for the victory in a few of the races in the remainder of the season.

[What's Burning?]

...1. Yes Hamilton is a great overtaker....

Is? You mean was. At Monza he couldn't overtake a pensioner. Now he's just the Queen of Denial.

...His mistake with Massa was not a deliberate contrived act....

So you admit he's a cock-up. At least that's one thing we can agree on.

Unless and until Hamilton holsters the J'accuse finger and comes to understand he's the father and owner of his own mistakes, his life is not going to get much smoother.

So what accusations did he make in this GP? What mistakes did he not own up to? The fact that a team doesn't fuel the car enough for a second qualifying attempt is certainly Hamilton's fault and he should own up to it? Is there an interview you've seen where Hamilton is blaming Massa for taking his nose off? Or blaming the stewards for making him do a drive through due to that color of his skin?

Hamilton has plenty faults no doubt, but to say that he isn't the best overtaker in the sport today is very sour, coming from you a Vettel supporter. So what's been the secret to his success this year?

The reality is that given the RB7, there's four or five other drivers on the grid that would be exactly where Vettel is today. So what's changed from last year's incompetence in overtaking to this year's success for Vettel? Um... I'd say the fact that he's not had a single failure leading to a DNF and that he's got the absolute undisputed best car on the grid, and that he's got a mediocre F1 driver as a team mate, who's greatest achievement for Red Bull yesterday was blocking Hamilton's start.

So let's enjoy Vettel's achievements this year and say that we've witness history, he deserves all the palmares bestowed him... the pairing of a great driver with a great car. Understand however, that you claiming Hamilton "was" a great overtaker (if there's a shred of truth to that) there may be a shred of truth to others claiming Vettel's paper tiger crumbles under the slightest pressure.

[Hammer278]

...1. Yes Hamilton is a great overtaker....

Is? You mean was. At Monza he couldn't overtake a pensioner. Now he's just the Queen of Denial.

...His mistake with Massa was not a deliberate contrived act....

So you admit he's a cock-up. At least that's one thing we can agree on.

Unless and until Hamilton holsters the J'accuse finger and comes to understand he's the father and owner of his own mistakes, his life is not going to get much smoother.

Pathetic post. Everyone acknowledges Michael broke some rules there and with Lewis being under fire from people in the paddock, he took a cautious approach and even with Michael's cheating, he kept his nose clean and got by.

And Hamilton "was" a good overtaker? What were you doing, watching Singapore with a blindfold on? Your post is so full of rubbish I bet even you know it.

[acosmichippo]

Kind of an overall boring race, but it had a few interesting bits. Great drive by DiResta. Can't wait to see him in a top-3 caliber car; I foresee some good battles between him, Vettel, Hamilton, and Kobayashi in a few years.

Semi-off topic: does anyone know who has the most NET overtakes? In other words, take their total overtakes, and subtract the amount of times they were overtaken.

[myownalias]

Semi-off topic: does anyone know who has the most NET overtakes? In other words, take their total overtakes, and subtract the amount of times they were overtaken.

I suspect it might be Jenson Button; I don't recall him being overtaken too much this year and he has certainly made lots of overtakes, mainly because of his poor qualifying position!

On topic: why on Earth are we arguing about Lewis Hamilton's 'mistake'; this is what is most frustrating about modern F1 for me; stewards are too quick to punish drivers for what would have been considered racing incidents not so long ago. You do have to admit that Lewis does seem to get penalised more frequently than other drivers for similar offences.

[What's Burning?]

I would suspect it would be Vettel since he finishes first most of the time, is rarely overtaken and subsequently would have all of his overtake count as a net positive.