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[What's Burning?]

Adrian Newey didn't build a top car for Red Bull until Vettel joined the team. Newey started with Red Bull in 2006 yet his 2007 and 2008 cars won ZERO races and RBR finished just 5th and 7th in WCC those two seasons. And neither Red Bull driver could manage better than a 10th result in WDC. In that second season, however, Vettel came 8th in WDC driving a Toro Rosso. And he won Monza. Vettel/Newey/TR had a better result than Webber/Coulthard/Newey/RBR, despite the RBR pair having a combined 20 seasons more F1 driving experience, and a considerably longer history working with Newey.

In 2009, Vettel's first season with RBR, the team won six races, came second in WCC, and Vettel came second in WDC. The team improved over its best previous result by three places and Vettel improved its best driver's result by eight places. In 2010, of course, RBR won nine races and both WDC and WCC. This season, with six races remaining, Vettel alone already has eight victories and a runaway lead in WDC.

If you don't see the pattern that's emerging, you simply are not looking. Red Bull's cars are becoming so indomitable precisely because because Vettel's considerable driving skill allows Newey to explore regions of performance where neither Coulthard nor Webber dared tread. Vettel and Newey form a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. They are Astaire and Rogers, Martin and Lewis, Lennon and McCartney, Ren and Stimpy. Rather than bicker and argue about 'ooh killed 'ooh, I think you should lighten up and enjoy the show. It really is bloody marvelous.

Martin Whitmarsh and Lewis Hamilton?

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

A very good blog -- by an Italian tifosi, no less, in Italian, of course -- asking how anyone still could not believe in Vettel.

C’è ancora qualcuno che non crede a Vettel?

[phil12321]

I dont think anyone is hating on Vettel as many of you like to think. I hope that I dont seem as if Im hating because Im not. I admire what Vettel has done but that cant go without recognizing that his car is a step above the rest. Now some of you will argue why Webber cant Keep up. The answer to that is simple "WEBBER is NOT the #1 Driver and if you really understand F1 then that should make sense and I wont go on to explain. Vettel is much like alain prost meaning he is very savvy, great with the media, great with bernie amongst over things etc. I say that because in F1 those alliances are crucial to his success and his success wasnt made without it. Now I will not deny his amazing Talent and it is usually said that the best drivers get the best cars but one must realize that there is more to success in F1 then just driving the pants offf a car, because if that was the case then half the drivers who are in the field now would have been WDC's. Nico, Barrichello, Felipe, montoya (yea the NASCAR driver) including the ones who have already been crowned.

[bud]

Adrian Newey didn't build a top car for Red Bull until Vettel joined the team. Newey started with Red Bull in 2006 yet his 2007 and 2008 cars won ZERO races and RBR finished just 5th and 7th in WCC those two seasons. And neither Red Bull driver could manage better than a 10th result in WDC. In that second season, however, Vettel came 8th in WDC driving a Toro Rosso. And he won Monza. Vettel/Newey/TR had a better result than Webber/Coulthard/Newey/RBR, despite the RBR pair having a combined 20 seasons more F1 driving experience, and a considerably longer history working with Newey.

Technically wrong, A Newey designed car in the Torro Rosso won in Italy.


But seriously Fred I thought you were smarter than this? Surely you can't use the correlation that Vettel arriving on the scene at RBR in 09 was the reason they had a strong car? 08 to 09 was a MASSIVE regulation change which drastically changed up the pecking order. I mean what changed at Honda/Brawn from 08 to 09? Why is their story different to RedBulls? Did Jenson and his engineers finally start talking?

[phil12321]

Adrian Newey didn't build a top car for Red Bull until Vettel joined the team. Newey started with Red Bull in 2006 yet his 2007 and 2008 cars won ZERO races and RBR finished just 5th and 7th in WCC those two seasons. And neither Red Bull driver could manage better than a 10th result in WDC. In that second season, however, Vettel came 8th in WDC driving a Toro Rosso. And he won Monza. Vettel/Newey/TR had a better result than Webber/Coulthard/Newey/RBR, despite the RBR pair having a combined 20 seasons more F1 driving experience, and a considerably longer history working with Newey.

Technically wrong, A Newey designed car in the Torro Rosso won in Italy.


But seriously Fred I thought you were smarter than this? Surely you can't use the correlation that Vettel arriving on the scene at RBR in 09 was the reason they had a strong car? 08 to 09 was a MASSIVE regulation change which drastically changed up the pecking order. I mean what changed at Honda/Brawn from 08 to 09? Why is their story different to RedBulls? Did Jenson and his engineers finally start talking?

I dont think it takes that good of an engineer to know that the double diffuser ruled!!! I think Brawn saw an opportunity and ran with it. I think he knew before anyone else that mercedes were interested in Returning to F1 as a factory team and he scurried up and put a profitable package together to sell to merc... IMO

[What's Burning?]

I believe in Vettel, I think he's a wonderful talent, a funny guy on the grid and perhaps even the best qualifier that's ever been. But I stop short of the accolades he gets from others, because I need to see more. He's certainly shown more this year, and I look forward to his growth and development. But to say that he's the reason for the RB success in an Alice in Wonderland fantasy... akin to saying that the fashion model makes the Design house.

That's just not the case.

Why is it that no one remembers that when he put the STR on pole in Monza in 2008 that Sebastien Bourdais qualified fourth! The car at that race was very good. The reason for the poles and the wins and the youngest ever everything is in large part due to the car. He's in the right team at the right time and should rightfully enjoy everything he wins, But please let's keep things in perspective. Check out the other thread on this forum where we ask how much does a driver matter... people are claiming it's 90% car... and then we come to here.

[bud]

the STR had the Ferrari engine, the RBR had the Renault...same chassis. at Monza in the wet we saw the difference of the engine.

[killem2]

the STR had the Ferrari engine, the RBR had the Renault...same chassis. at Monza in the wet we saw the difference of the engine.

And that's why the next 4 spots were all ferrari engine cars right?

FORMULA 1 GRAN PREMIO SANTANDER D'ITALIA 2008
Pos No Driver Team Laps Time/Retired Grid Pts
1 15 Sebastian Vettel STR-Ferrari 53 1:26:47.494 1 10
2 23 Heikki Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes 53 +12.5 secs 2 8
3 4 Robert Kubica BMW Sauber 53 +20.4 secs 11 6
4 5 Fernando Alonso Renault 53 +23.9 secs 8 5
5 3 Nick Heidfeld BMW Sauber 53 +27.7 secs 10 4
6 2 Felipe Massa Ferrari 53 +28.8 secs 6 3
7 22 Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 53 +29.9 secs 15 2
8 10 Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 53 +32.0 secs 3 1
9 1 Kimi Räikkönen Ferrari 53 +39.4 secs 14
10 6 Nelsinho Piquet Renault 53 +54.4 secs 17
11 12 Timo Glock Toyota 53 +58.8 secs 9
12 8 Kazuki Nakajima Williams-Toyota 53 +62.0 secs 20
13 11 Jarno Trulli Toyota 53 +65.9 secs 7
14 7 Nico Rosberg Williams-Toyota 53 +68.6 secs 5
15 16 Jenson Button Honda 53 +73.3 secs 19
16 9 David Coulthard Red Bull-Renault 52 +1 Lap 13
17 17 Rubens Barrichello Honda 52 +1 Lap 16
18 14 Sebastien Bourdais STR-Ferrari 52 +1 Lap 4
19 20 Adrian Sutil Force India-Ferrari 51 +2 Laps 18
Ret 21 Giancarlo Fisichella Force India-Ferrari 11 Accident 12

[darwin dali]

Adrian Newey didn't build a top car for Red Bull until Vettel joined the team. Newey started with Red Bull in 2006 yet his 2007 and 2008 cars won ZERO races and RBR finished just 5th and 7th in WCC those two seasons. And neither Red Bull driver could manage better than a 10th result in WDC. In that second season, however, Vettel came 8th in WDC driving a Toro Rosso. And he won Monza. Vettel/Newey/TR had a better result than Webber/Coulthard/Newey/RBR, despite the RBR pair having a combined 20 seasons more F1 driving experience, and a considerably longer history working with Newey.

In 2009, Vettel's first season with RBR, the team won six races, came second in WCC, and Vettel came second in WDC. The team improved over its best previous result by three places and Vettel improved its best driver's result by eight places. In 2010, of course, RBR won nine races and both WDC and WCC. This season, with six races remaining, Vettel alone already has eight victories and a runaway lead in WDC.

If you don't see the pattern that's emerging, you simply are not looking. Red Bull's cars are becoming so indomitable precisely because because Vettel's considerable driving skill allows Newey to explore regions of performance where neither Coulthard nor Webber dared tread. Vettel and Newey form a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. They are Astaire and Rogers, Martin and Lewis, Lennon and McCartney, Ren and Stimpy. Rather than bicker and argue about 'ooh killed 'ooh, I think you should lighten up and enjoy the show. It really is bloody marvelous.

Martin Whitmarsh and Lewis Hamilton?

Dean and Jerry.

[darwin dali]

A very good blog -- by an Italian tifosi, no less, in Italian, of course -- asking how anyone still could not believe in Vettel.

C’è ancora qualcuno che non crede a Vettel?

[What's Burning?]

Adrian Newey didn't build a top car for Red Bull until Vettel joined the team. Newey started with Red Bull in 2006 yet his 2007 and 2008 cars won ZERO races and RBR finished just 5th and 7th in WCC those two seasons. And neither Red Bull driver could manage better than a 10th result in WDC. In that second season, however, Vettel came 8th in WDC driving a Toro Rosso. And he won Monza. Vettel/Newey/TR had a better result than Webber/Coulthard/Newey/RBR, despite the RBR pair having a combined 20 seasons more F1 driving experience, and a considerably longer history working with Newey.

In 2009, Vettel's first season with RBR, the team won six races, came second in WCC, and Vettel came second in WDC. The team improved over its best previous result by three places and Vettel improved its best driver's result by eight places. In 2010, of course, RBR won nine races and both WDC and WCC. This season, with six races remaining, Vettel alone already has eight victories and a runaway lead in WDC.

If you don't see the pattern that's emerging, you simply are not looking. Red Bull's cars are becoming so indomitable precisely because because Vettel's considerable driving skill allows Newey to explore regions of performance where neither Coulthard nor Webber dared tread. Vettel and Newey form a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. They are Astaire and Rogers, Martin and Lewis, Lennon and McCartney, Ren and Stimpy. Rather than bicker and argue about 'ooh killed 'ooh, I think you should lighten up and enjoy the show. It really is bloody marvelous.

Martin Whitmarsh and Lewis Hamilton?

Dean and Jerry.

Party poopper... don't spoil the fun.

[Big Azza]

I believe in Vettel, I think he's a wonderful talent, a funny guy on the grid and perhaps even the best qualifier that's ever been. But I stop short of the accolades he gets from others, because I need to see more. He's certainly shown more this year, and I look forward to his growth and development. But to say that he's the reason for the RB success in an Alice in Wonderland fantasy... akin to saying that the fashion model makes the Design house.

That's just not the case.

Why is it that no one remembers that when he put the STR on pole in Monza in 2008 that Sebastien Bourdais qualified fourth! The car at that race was very good. The reason for the poles and the wins and the youngest ever everything is in large part due to the car. He's in the right team at the right time and should rightfully enjoy everything he wins, But please let's keep things in perspective. Check out the other thread on this forum where we ask how much does a driver matter... people are claiming it's 90% car... and then we come to here.

I always remember Bourdais' 4th place, and I felt a little sorry for him.

But here's another statistic I dug up: Vettel finished 8th in the championship that year, Bourdais finished 17th. Sure Bourdais was a little unlucky at times, But Vettel also retired from the first 4 races - 3 of them on the first lap. While Vettel was knocking on the door of a podium, Bourdais was trying to get the car up into the top 10. I'm going to bold and lamb-like and say that that Toro Rosso was not really much better than the current car, but I do acknowledge that the STR was a fast package on the day in Monza 08. However a typical race situation was in Brazil. Vettel finished 4th, Bourdais finished 14th... This is the same Sebastian Bourdais who was a 4-time Champ Car Series winner, and regularly did well in Le Mans and the junior formulae.

Adrian Newey didn't build a top car for Red Bull until Vettel joined the team. Newey started with Red Bull in 2006 yet his 2007 and 2008 cars won ZERO races and RBR finished just 5th and 7th in WCC those two seasons. And neither Red Bull driver could manage better than a 10th result in WDC. In that second season, however, Vettel came 8th in WDC driving a Toro Rosso. And he won Monza. Vettel/Newey/TR had a better result than Webber/Coulthard/Newey/RBR, despite the RBR pair having a combined 20 seasons more F1 driving experience, and a considerably longer history working with Newey.

In 2009, Vettel's first season with RBR, the team won six races, came second in WCC, and Vettel came second in WDC. The team improved over its best previous result by three places and Vettel improved its best driver's result by eight places. In 2010, of course, RBR won nine races and both WDC and WCC. This season, with six races remaining, Vettel alone already has eight victories and a runaway lead in WDC.

If you don't see the pattern that's emerging, you simply are not looking. Red Bull's cars are becoming so indomitable precisely because because Vettel's considerable driving skill allows Newey to explore regions of performance where neither Coulthard nor Webber dared tread. Vettel and Newey form a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. They are Astaire and Rogers, Martin and Lewis, Lennon and McCartney, Ren and Stimpy. Rather than bicker and argue about 'ooh killed 'ooh, I think you should lighten up and enjoy the show. It really is bloody marvelous.

I agree with you mostly here - and tbh I have never given it this much thought. Yeah, Newey did benefit from technical regulation changes. But STR raved about Vettel for his technical feedback. BMW raved about Vettel's speed. Hence Red Bull have benefitted strongly from Vettel's ability and, coupled with his amazing consistency, the car is continuing to improve leaps and bounds - more so than when it was just Webber and Coulthard. Also - would Red Bull still be as strong if they had Webber and Coulthard? How many wins does Webber have for Red Bull under his belt? But Webber is perhaps serving some benefit in that he is has been with Red Bull from the start and can witness the transformation, and provide his feedback as well.

However, I think it is no mere coincidence that Red Bull have been performing well after Vettel joined. Newey - a supreme aero designer, coupled with some young kid with an amazing technical ability who is blindingly quick and consistent. If Vettel wasn't so consistent, Newey wouldn't have such reliable results to build the car from. Vettel - although I hate to say it, as Vettel hates people saying it - is really the new Schumi - but his career so far he has been more consistant than Schumacher.

Sorry for my lamb-don, but I'm prepared for a decade of Vettel domination, unless he has an early retirement or looks for a new generation. If he wins three to five WDCs in this decade against Alonso, Hamilton, Schumacher, Button - surely it will be something we can tell our grandkids about....

[FRAFPDD]

Something tells me i dont think he will.

[darwin dali]

Adrian Newey didn't build a top car for Red Bull until Vettel joined the team. Newey started with Red Bull in 2006 yet his 2007 and 2008 cars won ZERO races and RBR finished just 5th and 7th in WCC those two seasons. And neither Red Bull driver could manage better than a 10th result in WDC. In that second season, however, Vettel came 8th in WDC driving a Toro Rosso. And he won Monza. Vettel/Newey/TR had a better result than Webber/Coulthard/Newey/RBR, despite the RBR pair having a combined 20 seasons more F1 driving experience, and a considerably longer history working with Newey.

In 2009, Vettel's first season with RBR, the team won six races, came second in WCC, and Vettel came second in WDC. The team improved over its best previous result by three places and Vettel improved its best driver's result by eight places. In 2010, of course, RBR won nine races and both WDC and WCC. This season, with six races remaining, Vettel alone already has eight victories and a runaway lead in WDC.

If you don't see the pattern that's emerging, you simply are not looking. Red Bull's cars are becoming so indomitable precisely because because Vettel's considerable driving skill allows Newey to explore regions of performance where neither Coulthard nor Webber dared tread. Vettel and Newey form a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. They are Astaire and Rogers, Martin and Lewis, Lennon and McCartney, Ren and Stimpy. Rather than bicker and argue about 'ooh killed 'ooh, I think you should lighten up and enjoy the show. It really is bloody marvelous.

Martin Whitmarsh and Lewis Hamilton?

Dean and Jerry.

Party poopper... don't spoil the fun.

[youtube]J8P-VzCR_qU&feature=related[/youtube]

[Peng]

Seriously no one is saying Vettel isn't an amazing driver and no one is saying Vettel cant compete with the best in the sport currently or well no one with a brain.

But he also isn't head and shoulders above everyone else on the grid like some people seem to think.