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[vaptin]

Number 1 and 2 should be by outcome not by design.

Well, yeah, but where's the evidence Massa is a better driver than Alonso? It's pretty much done.

Ferrari gave Massa a shot, at the start of 2010 and 2011, and he's been beaten.

F1 isn't about equal treatment, look at Fisichella, he doesn't even get to drive the damn car.

A relatively small proportion of f1 drivers get a competitive shot at the championship.

Massa's had more chances than all of those guys.

I agree meritocracy is normally the best way to determine who is the better driver, but once you work it out, that you have one clearly better than another, it tends to be favourable to support the better driver more than the worse one.

[vaptin]

Why would Ferrari deliberately screw up Massa's championship, sure they've made mistakes, but you think they did them on purpose? I guess pitting Alonso in Abu Dhabi last year was designed to screw Alonso then?

You'll have to ask them that. Supporting Massa appeared to be an after thought for Ferrari.

Seemingly yet another case of make your mind up first, then look for reasons to fit the idea, rather than the other way around.

Seemingly you are wrong. I just state things as I see them and if it upsets the Tifosi then tough, I just won't book a holiday to Italy.

Well your evidence isn't very strong, Ferrari through their weight behind Massa for 2008, Kimi moved out of the way for him.

You know he gets engineers, telemetry and all that? Perhaps stronger evidence would be the massive pay packet alongside a surplus of reserve drivers at Ferrari.

All teams have made screw ups, I don't see them being unusually common towards Massa (and I think a proper comparison would be the number of team mistakes that cost his team mate). Nor does correlation indicate causation. Even if Massa has suffered proportionally more, it doesn't indicate intention.

I can't remember as far back as Kimi, but with Alonso I've already mentioned the Abu Dhabi incident (how do you suppose that happened, were Ferrari conspiring against him too? Or was it bad luck, but then why weren't problems with Massa bad luck/mistakes?), also the mistake they made in Spa qualifying, seeing Alonso pretty far back (I think it was Massa ahead of him there in qualifying).

[racechick]

Number 1 and 2 should be by outcome not by design.

Well, yeah, but where's the evidence Massa is a better driver than Alonso? It's pretty much done.

Ferrari gave Massa a shot, at the start of 2010 and 2011, and he's been beaten.

F1 isn't about equal treatment, look at Fisichella, he doesn't even get to drive the damn car.

A relatively small proportion of f1 drivers get a competitive shot at the championship.

Massa's had more chances than all of those guys.

I agree meritocracy is normally the best way to determine who is the better driver, but once you work it out, that you have one clearly better than another, it tends to be favourable to support the better driver more than the worse one.

They didnt give him a shot in 2010-Alonso was whinging from the start and then came pull-over-gate. And Ive seen him left out on worn tyres this year if that suits Alonso's strategy.

[andrew]

Well your evidence isn't very strong, Ferrari through their weight behind Massa for 2008, Kimi moved out of the way for him.

You know he gets engineers, telemetry and all that? Perhaps stronger evidence would be the massive pay packet alongside a surplus of reserve drivers at Ferrari.

All teams have made screw ups, I don't see them being unusually common towards Massa (and I think a proper comparison would be the number of team mistakes that cost his team mate). Nor does correlation indicate causation. Even if Massa has suffered proportionally more, it doesn't indicate intention.

I can't remember as far back as Kimi, but with Alonso I've already mentioned the Abu Dhabi incident (how do you suppose that happened, were Ferrari conspiring against him too? Or was it bad luck, but then why weren't problems with Massa bad luck/mistakes?), also the mistake they made in Spa qualifying, seeing Alonso pretty far back (I think it was Massa ahead of him there in qualifying).

I can remember as far back as 94.

Sure Massa gets engineers and wotnot, they all get that. It's the basics. I'm not saying that Ferrari are conspiring against Massa, no one is saying that. What they are doing is making him play 2nd fiddle. Massa is clearly a good driver and should be in a team where he is allowed to race. This does not happen in Ferrari, but I figure that's their way. The sooner Massa leaves Ferrari the better for him and he can get some sort of progression to his F1 career.

[phonedog]

That's good if he's staying in Ferrari I am happy for him to be in the team

[vaptin]

Number 1 and 2 should be by outcome not by design.

Well, yeah, but where's the evidence Massa is a better driver than Alonso? It's pretty much done.

Ferrari gave Massa a shot, at the start of 2010 and 2011, and he's been beaten.

F1 isn't about equal treatment, look at Fisichella, he doesn't even get to drive the damn car.

A relatively small proportion of f1 drivers get a competitive shot at the championship.

Massa's had more chances than all of those guys.

I agree meritocracy is normally the best way to determine who is the better driver, but once you work it out, that you have one clearly better than another, it tends to be favourable to support the better driver more than the worse one.

Everyone mentions
They didnt give him a shot in 2010-Alonso was whinging from the start and then came pull-over-gate. And Ive seen him left out on worn tyres this year if that suits Alonso's strategy.

They pirotise the driver in front for strategies, which tends to be Alonso.

Alonso whined (being on fresher tyres, arguing he had the chance to go faster and make up time, its not really an unconventional strategy and Burndel clearly agreed) but what did Ferrari do? Move Massa over? No, so that ought to have been a clear statement to Massa.

By Germany 2010, Massa was considered a non-contender for the WDC, whereas Ferrari believe Alonso still had a shot, think that one turned out to be quite a good call. Ferrari effectively threw that WDC away in Abu Dhabi.

[vaptin]

Well your evidence isn't very strong, Ferrari through their weight behind Massa for 2008, Kimi moved out of the way for him.

You know he gets engineers, telemetry and all that? Perhaps stronger evidence would be the massive pay packet alongside a surplus of reserve drivers at Ferrari.

All teams have made screw ups, I don't see them being unusually common towards Massa (and I think a proper comparison would be the number of team mistakes that cost his team mate). Nor does correlation indicate causation. Even if Massa has suffered proportionally more, it doesn't indicate intention.

I can't remember as far back as Kimi, but with Alonso I've already mentioned the Abu Dhabi incident (how do you suppose that happened, were Ferrari conspiring against him too? Or was it bad luck, but then why weren't problems with Massa bad luck/mistakes?), also the mistake they made in Spa qualifying, seeing Alonso pretty far back (I think it was Massa ahead of him there in qualifying).

I can remember as far back as 94.

Sure Massa gets engineers and wotnot, they all get that. It's the basics. I'm not saying that Ferrari are conspiring against Massa, no one is saying that. What they are doing is making him play 2nd fiddle. Massa is clearly a good driver and should be in a team where he is allowed to race. This does not happen in Ferrari, but I figure that's their way. The sooner Massa leaves Ferrari the better for him.

It's a similar situation to Webber though, if Massa thought he had a chance to walk into a better position, he would. But he doesn't, neither McLaren nor Redbull will take him I think.

His best position is a non-predetermined number 2 at Ferrari, if next season he was able to match Alonso he gets equal status. If he manages to beat him, he gets priority. He hasn't done that, probably never will, but what else can he do? He'll still have a better shot being number 2 at Ferrari than in a Sauber.

[racechick]

Number 1 and 2 should be by outcome not by design.

Well, yeah, but where's the evidence Massa is a better driver than Alonso? It's pretty much done.

Ferrari gave Massa a shot, at the start of 2010 and 2011, and he's been beaten.

F1 isn't about equal treatment, look at Fisichella, he doesn't even get to drive the damn car.

A relatively small proportion of f1 drivers get a competitive shot at the championship.

Massa's had more chances than all of those guys.

I agree meritocracy is normally the best way to determine who is the better driver, but once you work it out, that you have one clearly better than another, it tends to be favourable to support the better driver more than the worse one.

Everyone mentions
They didnt give him a shot in 2010-Alonso was whinging from the start and then came pull-over-gate. And Ive seen him left out on worn tyres this year if that suits Alonso's strategy.

They pirotise the driver in front for strategies, which tends to be Alonso.

Alonso whined (being on fresher tyres, arguing he had the chance to go faster and make up time, its not really an unconventional strategy and Burndel clearly agreed) but what did Ferrari do? Move Massa over? No, so that ought to have been a clear statement to Massa.

By Germany 2010, Massa was considered a non-contender for the WDC, whereas Ferrari believe Alonso still had a shot, think that one turned out to be quite a good call. Ferrari effectively threw that WDC away in Abu Dhabi.

Well you could say that. Or you could say Alonso threw it away at Monaco, or Silverstone or China. Its not all won and lost at the last race of the season.

[vaptin]

Well no, but turned out to be close enough to make a difference, they were no where near the WCC, so it worked out well I think.

You missed out Spa, might even have been the worst one.

[racechick]

Oh yes

[bud]

So many hypocritical Alonso fans in here

[nish2280]

If Massa is happy and Ferrari are happy then what is the big deal?

[Hammer278]

The big deal is we all know Massa's teammate is the happiest with this deal.

[racechick]

The big deal is we all know Massa's teammate is the happiest with this deal.

And I doubt massa is. Its just the best he can get at the moment.

And you know what. For all the above talk if Alonso had a car failure and a couple of ify strategy calls. Then he had brain fade because of frustration and throw in a stewards decision against him. Say he was trailling Massa by 50 odd points before half way through the season. You reckon he's gonna get the 'Massa is faster than you ' call. Not on your life. And if by chance he did, then you'd get to see, once again, how NOT to be a team player.

[vaptin]

Oh, no! Alonso is happier than Massa.

[Imitates Alan Sugar] Ferrari aren't a bloody happiness factory [/end].

I guess this is the closest we'll get to an admission, this isn't about ethics or principles at all, its just you guys like Massa more than Alonso.