FORUMula1.com

[bud]

Why change? Perfect no.1 and no.2, Mass seems to be settling in very nicely as the new Rubens. Ferrari have found their new 'dream team'.

Well, unfortunately, this 'dream team' has not produced a championship yet. When they do, i doubt Ferrari or their fans would have a problem with the new Rubens.

I'm sure Massa fans and Brazilians as a whole would love another countryman as a lap dog Ferrari whipping boy

On Massa and Kimi, I agree in their short time together as team mates they were treated fairly, but with Alonso I'm sorry but Massa is clearly treated as a number 2 from the first race just as Rubens and Irvine were in the Schumi era.

We never heard Kimi following Massa and pleading to the team to tell him to pull over as Alonso did with his "think of the championship"
And if Massa and Alonso were equal then they wouldn't have told him to pull over.

[Jabberwocky]

Massa seems to struggle with the change of tyres, think how he started out on the Michelins

[myownalias]

Every interview I've seen with LDM in 2011 and he has been questioned about Massa's future; he has said that he has a contract for 2012 and he will be a Ferrari driver in 2012... why is this news?

[vaptin]

Massa's slow, but Ferrari show a lot of faith in him. I'm off the opinion Massa's had his chance, and he's failed.

Can't really blame them for putting Alonso above Massa either, even Whitmarsh would.

[f1ea]

We never heard Kimi following Massa and pleading to the team to tell him to pull over as Alonso did with his "think of the championship"
And if Massa and Alonso were equal then they wouldn't have told him to pull over.

Yeah, but they weren't equal in terms of the championship... and i'm sure Ferrari's actions were based on this and not on a personal preferrence basis... Alonso shouldnt have told the team over, maybe he was frustrated, but the team knew wht they had to do anyways...

i think he has been treated quite fairly this yr, but that will surely change if Alonso wins another couple of races and Massa keeps coming outside the podiums.

Like i always say, in the case of Mclaren it would not happen because the 2 have been more than reasonably similar.

Every interview I've seen with LDM in 2011 and he has been questioned about Massa's future; he has said that he has a contract for 2012 and he will be a Ferrari driver in 2012... why is this news?

the people want to know...
i'm thinking Massa will be given 1 last chance. Then they'll go with either Kubica if he's able to return in solid shape, or Perez if he delivers some impressive stuff.

[racechick]

We never heard Kimi following Massa and pleading to the team to tell him to pull over as Alonso did with his "think of the championship"
And if Massa and Alonso were equal then they wouldn't have told him to pull over.

Yeah, but they weren't equal in terms of the championship... and i'm sure Ferrari's actions were based on this and not on a personal preferrence basis... Alonso shouldnt have told the team over, maybe he was frustrated, but the team knew wht they had to do anyways...

i think he has been treated quite fairly this yr, but that will surely change if Alonso wins another couple of races and Massa keeps coming outside the podiums.

Like i always say, in the case of Mclaren it would not happen because the 2 have been more than reasonably similar.

Every interview I've seen with LDM in 2011 and he has been questioned about Massa's future; he has said that he has a contract for 2012 and he will be a Ferrari driver in 2012... why is this news?

the people want to know...
i'm thinking Massa will be given 1 last chance. Then they'll go with either Kubica if he's able to return in solid shape, or Perez if he delivers some impressive stuff.

Wasn't Kimi supporting Massa's bid at the end of one year? By his own choice. I thought he did.
Id not put Button and hamilton in the same league. The thing is, because they're both given the same chance any slight perfoprmance advantage by one isnt exagerrated. When ones favoured any performance gap will look much bigger. Therefore Alonso looks better than Massa than he really is. Whilst the gap between Button and Hamilton is as it is....If you follow what I mean

[vaptin]

We never heard Kimi following Massa and pleading to the team to tell him to pull over as Alonso did with his "think of the championship"
And if Massa and Alonso were equal then they wouldn't have told him to pull over.

Yeah, but they weren't equal in terms of the championship... and i'm sure Ferrari's actions were based on this and not on a personal preferrence basis... Alonso shouldnt have told the team over, maybe he was frustrated, but the team knew wht they had to do anyways...

i think he has been treated quite fairly this yr, but that will surely change if Alonso wins another couple of races and Massa keeps coming outside the podiums.

Like i always say, in the case of Mclaren it would not happen because the 2 have been more than reasonably similar.

Every interview I've seen with LDM in 2011 and he has been questioned about Massa's future; he has said that he has a contract for 2012 and he will be a Ferrari driver in 2012... why is this news?

the people want to know...
i'm thinking Massa will be given 1 last chance. Then they'll go with either Kubica if he's able to return in solid shape, or Perez if he delivers some impressive stuff.

Wasn't Kimi supporting Massa's bid at the end of one year? By his own choice. I thought he did.
Id not put Button and hamilton in the same league. The thing is, because they're both given the same chance any slight perfoprmance advantage by one isnt exagerrated. When ones favoured any performance gap will look much bigger. Therefore Alonso looks better than Massa than he really is. Whilst the gap between Button and Hamilton is as it is....If you follow what I mean

Yes, and sometimes the bigger performance gap is more beneficial.

i.e. supporting driver A, over driver B produces a better net gain for the team, than keeping driver A and B equal.

Obviously the question, is if that's true (or when would that become true), I seriously doubt any team believes in keeping their drivers equal on principle. Redbull claimed they do .

[f1ea]

Id not put Button and hamilton in the same league. The thing is, because they're both given the same chance any slight perfoprmance advantage by one isnt exagerrated. When ones favoured any performance gap will look much bigger. Therefore Alonso looks better than Massa than he really is. Whilst the gap between Button and Hamilton is as it is....If you follow what I mean

I'm not saying Button and Hamilton are in the same league. They are very different drivers, but their results and performance has been pretty similar on their 2 yrs as teammates. Hamilton is by far the better Q, but Button has been by far the most mistake-free. So in the end, they both have what it takes to deliver on their own terms and that's why the team let them be.

On performance and results alone... Alonso has been faster. Period, full stop, end of. The team doesnt care who "looks" faster. They care who is closer (and within more chances to get closer) to P1 in the championship, to base their team strategies.

in what way could the team and preference influence an Alonso win at Silverstone, and yet have Massa come in where he did? how much of that position-gap was down to 'preferrence'?

If such a gap is obtained trhough simple preferrence, all the other teams running 'equal' treatment are idiots!

Whoever thinks the reason they have kept Massa is because he's a happy lapdog, is looking through BS.

[bud]

Whoever thinks the reason they have kept Massa is because he's a happy lapdog, is looking through BS.

Whoever thinks Alonso isn't given preference is looking through BS.

Alonso is out psyching Massa off track, marking his territory so to speak within the team. These mind games are as much to blame with anything in terms of Massa's form. The teams structure doesn't bode well with helping a driver get on form, Germany last year set the tone and marked Massa's position within the team. Unfortunate for Massa but he is the new Rubens.


Guess Alonso fans find team favouritism easy to accept when it Goes his way. But are pretty vocal when they think his team mate is being favoured.

[f1ea]

So this preferemce Alonso IS getting accounts for him always outperforming Massa in Q; and say P1 vs P5 in the last race?

Like i said; if the above is true, then all teams running equal teammates are idiots.

I'm sure Ferrari is doing everything they can to get Massa back to form. But whilst doing so, they will not sacrifice the championship.

[racechick]

So this preferemce Alonso IS getting accounts for him always outperforming Massa in Q; and say P1 vs P5 in the last race?

Like i said; if the above is true, then all teams running equal teammates are idiots.

I'm sure Ferrari is doing everything they can to get Massa back to form. But whilst doing so, they will not sacrifice the championship.

If they hadnt done the dirty on him in Germay last year they wouldnt need to be getting him back on form, he wouldnt be psyched out.

[andrew]

So this preferemce Alonso IS getting accounts for him always outperforming Massa in Q; and say P1 vs P5 in the last race?

Like i said; if the above is true, then all teams running equal teammates are idiots.

I'm sure Ferrari is doing everything they can to get Massa back to form. But whilst doing so, they will not sacrifice the championship.

If they hadnt done the dirty on him in Germay last year they wouldnt need to be getting him back on form, he wouldnt be psyched out.

Ferrari have been screwing Massa for years. Continuing to do so is surely the right way to get him backon form. They even lost him the championship in 2008! Gave him a dry set up in a very wet Silverstone and gave him a green light in the pits when the fuel hose was still attached in Singapore. This is part of the reason why I can't stand Ferrari.

No team runs their team mates as equal if they are in contention for championships. The difference is that Ferrari have a tendancy to forget about the other driver. Ok, Massa is a better driver than Irvine and Barrichello, he was the only team mate who could race and beat an on form Schumacher. But despite him being the strongest second driver since the days of Alesi and Berger, Massa is a 2nd class citizen at Ferrari. Sad really.

[vaptin]

Massa was being conclusively outperformed by Alonso as a whole last season (this season too), being made a number two seems pretty damn reasonable under those circumstances. How Ferrari handle their divers is up to them.

So this preferemce Alonso IS getting accounts for him always outperforming Massa in Q; and say P1 vs P5 in the last race?

Like i said; if the above is true, then all teams running equal teammates are idiots.

I'm sure Ferrari is doing everything they can to get Massa back to form. But whilst doing so, they will not sacrifice the championship.

If they hadnt done the dirty on him in Germay last year they wouldnt need to be getting him back on form, he wouldnt be psyched out.

Ferrari have been screwing Massa for years. Continuing to do so is surely the right way to get him backon form. They even lost him the championship in 2008! Gave him a dry set up in a very wet Silverstone and gave him a green light in the pits when the fuel hose was still attached in Singapore. This is part of the reason why I can't stand Ferrari.

No team runs their team mates as equal if they are in contention for championships. The difference is that Ferrari have a tendancy to forget about the other driver. Ok, Massa is a better driver than Irvine and Barrichello, he was the only team mate who could race and beat an on form Schumacher. But despite him being the strongest second driver since the days of Alesi and Berger, Massa is a 2nd class citizen at Ferrari. Sad really.

Why would Ferrari deliberately screw up Massa's championship, sure they've made mistakes, but you think they did them on purpose? I guess pitting Alonso in Abu Dhabi last year was designed to screw Alonso then?

Seemingly yet another case of make your mind up first, then look for reasons to fit the idea, rather than the other way around.

So, its OK to have a number 1 and number 2 but there's some sort of limit to how far you can apply that?

[racechick]

Number 1 and 2 should be by outcome not by design.

[andrew]

Why would Ferrari deliberately screw up Massa's championship, sure they've made mistakes, but you think they did them on purpose? I guess pitting Alonso in Abu Dhabi last year was designed to screw Alonso then?

You'll have to ask them that. Supporting Massa appeared to be an after thought for Ferrari.

Seemingly yet another case of make your mind up first, then look for reasons to fit the idea, rather than the other way around.

Seemingly you are wrong. I just state things as I see them and if it upsets the Tifosi then tough, I just won't book a holiday to Italy. I don't see Ferrari supporting Massa as much as they support Alonso.