FORUMula1.com

[bud]

so bigpat, is it you or your brain that is big? you know your stuff

[acosmichippo]

The extra downforce (probably coming from the more efficient EBD, at least partially) affords the RBs to use the DRS in quali where nobody else can, i.e., early on coming out of corners. This advantage might get taken away with the rule 'clarification' in Silverstone and poles might be a bit harder to achieve for SV.

But EBDs will still be in silverstone. It's the engine mapping that will be restricted, which will cause them to not be able to carry as much speed through breaking and turning (off throttle). But once they engage the throttle coming out of the corners (which is at or before the point you'd want to deploy DRS), the EBD will be back to working its magic. So that means their deployment of DRS shouldn't change that much, right?

[bigpat]

Cheers bud, I'm just passionate about the mechanical aspects of racing cars....but yes, I'm am a 'big' boy so to speak.

The EBD mapping does help, but everyone will be nobbled the same amount. Every one of the frontrunners have optimised their systems thus far. The reduction will be across the board, including the 'black' Lotus'. I think people once again are placing too much emphasis on one issue. With the the mapping ban I expect RBR to be better off, as they can start the race lighter on fuel, seeing their engines are noted for fuel efficiency.....

II believe RBR is still the best "passive" car aerodyamically. Their downforce at prowess has been prevalent for 3 seasons now. I believe that they improved the mechanical properties of the cars in the last 2 years. Even at low speed, traction limited tracks, the RB's are noticeably lighter on their rear tyres, Even more so that Button with his gentler driving style. Suspension geometry, and kinematics do still play a part in this game, thankfully.

[FRAFPDD]

The extra downforce (probably coming from the more efficient EBD, at least partially) affords the RBs to use the DRS in quali where nobody else can, i.e., early on coming out of corners. This advantage might get taken away with the rule 'clarification' in Silverstone and poles might be a bit harder to achieve for SV.

But EBDs will still be in silverstone. It's the engine mapping that will be restricted, which will cause them to not be able to carry as much speed through breaking and turning (off throttle). But once they engage the throttle coming out of the corners (which is at or before the point you'd want to deploy DRS), the EBD will be back to working its magic. So that means their deployment of DRS shouldn't change that much, right?

Im under the impression the EBD overrun, say, before its cuts down to 10 percent of its original value (valencia spec) enabled red bull with better downforce from it, were able to take corners faster, because they had more downforce from the EBD overrun in them, as a result, they could open their DRS earlier in corners like the last one in Malaysia because their car will stick to the ground still, if Mclaren or Ferrari tried it theyd be doing it with much less downforce then Red Bull and infact couldnt open it as early as they do as theyd spin off sutil in australia style. Thats my understanding of it.


Mclaren reckon itll hurt them, well, Lewis and Jenson do, but Whitmarsh doesnt, but itll hurt red bull more surely because of two things;

1. They cant open their DRS system early, itll open the same time as the others cause they just dont have the downforce from their supreme EBD overrun system

2. Mclaren and Ferraris advantages at the moment are top speed and traction respectively, Red Bulls is corner speed, Red Bulls trump card is the one being curtailed the most although others will lose out, and the gap in Valencia between Vettel and Lewis was .4 , thats a high downforce and traction track too, im cautiously optimistic that this will bring Red Bulls qualifying and race pace to around Mclarens at least, if not more.

Problem is Vettels current lead in terms of an exciting WDC battle, although his chances of DNF'ing are ten fold when hes submerged in the pack, which is what they need to do.

[darwin dali]

The extra downforce (probably coming from the more efficient EBD, at least partially) affords the RBs to use the DRS in quali where nobody else can, i.e., early on coming out of corners. This advantage might get taken away with the rule 'clarification' in Silverstone and poles might be a bit harder to achieve for SV.

But EBDs will still be in silverstone. It's the engine mapping that will be restricted, which will cause them to not be able to carry as much speed through breaking and turning (off throttle). But once they engage the throttle coming out of the corners (which is at or before the point you'd want to deploy DRS), the EBD will be back to working its magic. So that means their deployment of DRS shouldn't change that much, right?

See Fraf's response

[darwin dali]

Cheers bud, I'm just passionate about the mechanical aspects of racing cars....but yes, I'm am a 'big' boy so to speak.

The EBD mapping does help, but everyone will be nobbled the same amount. Every one of the frontrunners have optimised their systems thus far. The reduction will be across the board, including the 'black' Lotus'. I think people once again are placing too much emphasis on one issue. With the the mapping ban I expect RBR to be better off, as they can start the race lighter on fuel, seeing their engines are noted for fuel efficiency.....

II believe RBR is still the best "passive" car aerodyamically. Their downforce at prowess has been prevalent for 3 seasons now. I believe that they improved the mechanical properties of the cars in the last 2 years. Even at low speed, traction limited tracks, the RB's are noticeably lighter on their rear tyres, Even more so that Button with his gentler driving style. Suspension geometry, and kinematics do still play a part in this game, thankfully.

The lighter fuel load could be RB's saving grace

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Now Horner is claiming RBR never ran a hot-blown EBD and offers the ban will affect the teams who were using hot-blown more than they.

...As for RBR's DRS being optimised for corners, if that were so, it wouldn't give them any speed advantage in the race, would it?...

I addressed that already. Of what use is a device to aid in overtaking if you never have need of overtaking? It's a strategy based on Vettel always being P1 after the first corner. I also mentioned it's Vettel's in car particular, not so much Webber's. Vettel was opening the DRS at the third apex of Turkey's turn 8 when no one else was opening theirs until they'd reached the straightaway.

The success of a cornering-optimised DRS in qualies eliminates the need for an overtaking DRS during the race.

[Denthúl]

Now Horner is claiming RBR never ran a hot-blown EBD and offers the ban will affect the teams who were using hot-blown more than they.

I'm pretty sure much of McLaren's pace gains were down to the hot-blowing gases. Not sure which version Ferrari use. The gap could widen.

[F1er]

[acosmichippo]

edit: nevermind. my gut tells me we won't see much of a difference in RBR's qualifying or race pace.

[bigpat]

Now Horner is claiming RBR never ran a hot-blown EBD and offers the ban will affect the teams who were using hot-blown more than they.

...As for RBR's DRS being optimised for corners, if that were so, it wouldn't give them any speed advantage in the race, would it?...

I addressed that already. Of what use is a device to aid in overtaking if you never have need of overtaking? It's a strategy based on Vettel always being P1 after the first corner. I also mentioned it's Vettel's in car particular, not so much Webber's. Vettel was opening the DRS at the third apex of Turkey's turn 8 when no one else was opening theirs until they'd reached the straightaway.

The success of a cornering-optimised DRS in qualies eliminates the need for an overtaking DRS during the race.

To me that sounds like leaving too much to chance. All Vettel needs to do is be 2nd or 3rd into the first corner, and the plan would be very compromised.

If Vettel can open his DRS earlier than others, I take that as a sign of supreme confidence more than anything....

[racechick]

edit: nevermind. my gut tells me we won't see much of a difference in RBR's qualifying or race pace.

According to autosport they will be stronger. Horner says they are not using hot blown diffusers...Mclaren are So the Fia's attempt to manipulate the results may just have backfired.; Not sure where ferrari sit but I dont think they will be as badly affectedv as McLaren.

[myownalias]

edit: nevermind. my gut tells me we won't see much of a difference in RBR's qualifying or race pace.

According to autosport they will be stronger. Horner says they are not using hot blown diffusers...Mclaren are So the Fia's attempt to manipulate the results may just have backfired.; Not sure where ferrari sit but I dont think they will be as badly affectedv as McLaren.

Helmut Marko has gone on record as saying the Silverstone changes will lose the team 1/2 second; but they have made gains in other areas to negate that time loss somewhat. Now Christian Horner is saying Red Bull will be faster as they never used the EBD system while their rivals did. Sounds like propaganda to me; let's just let Silverstone play out and see where we are!

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

...If Vettel can open his DRS earlier than others, I take that as a sign of supreme confidence more than anything....

How much downforce does confidence create?

[bigpat]

....more than you think. Having supreme confidence in yourself and your car can give you a couple of extra tenths when it comes to the crunch. Never under-estimate the value of a driver at the height of his powers. It is an inertia that I've felt in the garage, and is perpetuating.....

Look at 1992. The active Williams was a rocketship, except that sometimes during high speed turn in, the rear could momentarily step out on turn- in due to diffuser stall. The car would almost instantly recover and go around the corner. Nigel mansell, with his self belief, and CONFIDENCE, would simply correct it with the steering wheel, and kept the boot into it, trusting the car would get through the corner.

Ricardo Patrese simply couldn't trust that the car could do it, and subsequently lifted off the throttle, upsetting things further, and ultimately entering the same corner at a slower speed on apprehension, costing himself laptime.

When Schumacher had to get the best out of the Benetton B194 , he had to adapt to an unstable car in order to do it. He trusted his natural ability in order to deal with it. His team mates were less tolerant of it, same as the B195. The B196 had similar characteristics also, but Alesi or Berger couldn't cope either, throwing the cars into the fences a few times in pre-season testing. Tuning the car to accommodate their styles, took the edge off the cars ultimate speed.