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#263259
red bull is a machine when it comes to marketing and money, but 1 man makes such a difference?

i cant believe that as biog historical teams as ferrari and mclaren are are letting them selves get blown away.

one thing is to start winning, and i have nothing wrong with a relative new comer to the sport (red bull) to start winning, but how far back has ferrari and mclaren fallen?
#263264
Answer to the question. Newey. Simples!

I would have said that previously and I did; but bigpat's post has made me think differently; Newey is obviously the driving force but he needs a top notch team or engineers, aerodynamicists etc to achieve what he has; I believe he has built his team over a number of years which would explain how the RB has gotten better over the years!


Id love to agree but ive never heard of a dominating car in F1 that didnt have something going for it, a single thing, that made it that much better

driver aids for williams in 93
Honda engines for Mclaren in 88 (and two top drivers)
double decker diffuser in 09
mass damper in 05

Im pessimistic if you like in beleiving a "harmonious" team has created that monster of a car, there something maybe illegal, maybe not, maybe internal maybe external that makes that car better then any other. Question is will we EVER find out what it was?

If silverstone doesnt answer us that question im not sure what will.
#263269
Im pessimistic if you like in beleiving a "harmonious" team has created that monster of a car, there something maybe illegal, maybe not, maybe internal maybe external that makes that car better then any other. Question is will we EVER find out what it was?

We know it's the EBD and overrun that makes the Red Bull so fast but what I am saying is that it takes more than one man to create such an ingeniously solution, exploiting loopholes etc. Newey couldn't have made it happen without the team he has around him, and for the record, I believe a team that is winning will be more harmonious than one that's not!
#263281
forgive me if this sounds a bit weird but dont you think formula one and rbr are kinda like football here.

barcelona in football has worked up for years, and now that they have one of the best coach, one of the best squads, and the integrity and foundation stable enough to win titles, theyre winning them.

while ferrari and mclaren are acting kind of like real madrid has in the past, where they expect to buy the best players (in this case drivers) make teams, and expect to win.

even if they end up crashing into each other, or going through team orders.

over the years weve seen this in cases like the

alonso hamilton
rivalry

or alonso massa team orders

its not only cause of newey but his whole team around him has evolutionized to a point where they are here to win.

they have all the right tools. they are pushing vettel while making him huntouchable by putting a barrier of webber to stop anyone from getting close, him self to.
#263290
I think RBR's DRS is more important than their EBD. Their advantage during the race is not so great as their advantage in qualies. Their DRS is designed for the corners, not for the straights. Vettel can use his DRS in qualies earlier on exit and in many corners where other teams -- whose DRS was designed to boost top speed -- can't manage the loss of downforce from opening theirs. In fact, if you look at the trap speeds, Webber always is several kph the faster. I think their DRSs are individually tuned and Vettel's is balanced more for qualies and takes for granted that he'll be on pole, where he won't need it/can't use it for overtaking.

RBR's DRS almost always gets Vettel on pole. What's the use of DRS during the race if all you ever have to overtake is backmarkers?
#263300
I think RBR's DRS is more important than their EBD. Their advantage during the race is not so great as their advantage in qualies. Their DRS is designed for the corners, not for the straights. Vettel can use his DRS in qualies earlier on exit and in many corners where other teams -- whose DRS was designed to boost top speed -- can't manage the loss of downforce from opening theirs. In fact, if you look at the trap speeds, Webber always is several kph the faster. I think their DRSs are individually tuned and Vettel's is balanced more for qualies and takes for granted that he'll be on pole, where he won't need it/can't use it for overtaking.

RBR's DRS almost always gets Vettel on pole. What's the use of DRS during the race if all you ever have to overtake is backmarkers?


Do you reckon the ban on EBD ovverun will see their advantage of mid corner slot opening diminished?
#263304
Im pessimistic if you like in beleiving a "harmonious" team has created that monster of a car, there something maybe illegal, maybe not, maybe internal maybe external that makes that car better then any other. Question is will we EVER find out what it was?

We know it's the EBD and overrun that makes the Red Bull so fast but what I am saying is that it takes more than one man to create such an ingeniously solution, exploiting loopholes etc. Newey couldn't have made it happen without the team he has around him, and for the record, I believe a team that is winning will be more harmonious than one that's not!



Do we !?, well ive missed a trick then, i thought everyone was still scratching their heads trying to work it out?


How sure are you?
#263307
Im pessimistic if you like in beleiving a "harmonious" team has created that monster of a car, there something maybe illegal, maybe not, maybe internal maybe external that makes that car better then any other. Question is will we EVER find out what it was?

We know it's the EBD and overrun that makes the Red Bull so fast but what I am saying is that it takes more than one man to create such an ingeniously solution, exploiting loopholes etc. Newey couldn't have made it happen without the team he has around him, and for the record, I believe a team that is winning will be more harmonious than one that's not!



Do we !?, well ive missed a trick then, i thought everyone was still scratching their heads trying to work it out?


How sure are you?


My thoughts exactly.I'm worried for McLaren as we're struggling for downforce as it is.I think it will harm us the most and FIArarri the least.
#263308
Im pessimistic if you like in beleiving a "harmonious" team has created that monster of a car, there something maybe illegal, maybe not, maybe internal maybe external that makes that car better then any other. Question is will we EVER find out what it was?

We know it's the EBD and overrun that makes the Red Bull so fast but what I am saying is that it takes more than one man to create such an ingeniously solution, exploiting loopholes etc. Newey couldn't have made it happen without the team he has around him, and for the record, I believe a team that is winning will be more harmonious than one that's not!

Do we !?, well ive missed a trick then, i thought everyone was still scratching their heads trying to work it out?

How sure are you?

Red Bull themselves have admitted that the loss of the off throttle EBD will cost them 1/2 a second... http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92717
#263311
Im pessimistic if you like in beleiving a "harmonious" team has created that monster of a car, there something maybe illegal, maybe not, maybe internal maybe external that makes that car better then any other. Question is will we EVER find out what it was?

We know it's the EBD and overrun that makes the Red Bull so fast but what I am saying is that it takes more than one man to create such an ingeniously solution, exploiting loopholes etc. Newey couldn't have made it happen without the team he has around him, and for the record, I believe a team that is winning will be more harmonious than one that's not!

Do we !?, well ive missed a trick then, i thought everyone was still scratching their heads trying to work it out?

How sure are you?

Red Bull themselves have admitted that the loss of the off throttle EBD will cost them 1/2 a second... http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92717


Doesnt quite make sense though surely?, the implication your giving is that what makes Red Bull so fast is the EBD overrun, Red Bull are often half a second up on the next team (vettel anyway) , now we know Mclaren in particular arent going to get any faster with the same ban imposed on their EBD, so red bull are still infront? Now what is it that makes them so fast?
#263313
Im pessimistic if you like in beleiving a "harmonious" team has created that monster of a car, there something maybe illegal, maybe not, maybe internal maybe external that makes that car better then any other. Question is will we EVER find out what it was?

We know it's the EBD and overrun that makes the Red Bull so fast but what I am saying is that it takes more than one man to create such an ingeniously solution, exploiting loopholes etc. Newey couldn't have made it happen without the team he has around him, and for the record, I believe a team that is winning will be more harmonious than one that's not!

Do we !?, well ive missed a trick then, i thought everyone was still scratching their heads trying to work it out?

How sure are you?

Red Bull themselves have admitted that the loss of the off throttle EBD will cost them 1/2 a second... http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92717

Doesnt quite make sense though surely?, the implication your giving is that what makes Red Bull so fast is the EBD overrun, Red Bull are often half a second up on the next team (vettel anyway) , now we know Mclaren in particular arent going to get any faster with the same ban imposed on their EBD, so red bull are still infront? Now what is it that makes them so fast?

The thing is that the EBD system (not just the overrun) on the Red Bull is much more effective than that of other teams; yes McLaren use the overrun as well but losing it may not have such a big effect on the speed; maybe only two tenths of a second loss; which should close up the field; obviously this is all speculation until we see the result next weekend!
#263317
Im pessimistic if you like in beleiving a "harmonious" team has created that monster of a car, there something maybe illegal, maybe not, maybe internal maybe external that makes that car better then any other. Question is will we EVER find out what it was?

We know it's the EBD and overrun that makes the Red Bull so fast but what I am saying is that it takes more than one man to create such an ingeniously solution, exploiting loopholes etc. Newey couldn't have made it happen without the team he has around him, and for the record, I believe a team that is winning will be more harmonious than one that's not!

Do we !?, well ive missed a trick then, i thought everyone was still scratching their heads trying to work it out?

How sure are you?

Red Bull themselves have admitted that the loss of the off throttle EBD will cost them 1/2 a second... http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92717

Doesnt quite make sense though surely?, the implication your giving is that what makes Red Bull so fast is the EBD overrun, Red Bull are often half a second up on the next team (vettel anyway) , now we know Mclaren in particular arent going to get any faster with the same ban imposed on their EBD, so red bull are still infront? Now what is it that makes them so fast?

The thing is that the EBD system (not just the overrun) on the Red Bull is much more effective than that of other teams; yes McLaren use the overrun as well but losing it may not have such a big effect on the speed; maybe only two tenths of a second loss; which should close up the field; obviously this is all speculation until we see the result next weekend!


Well i hope your right, youve made me excited for my first Grand Prix again :yes:

Nice British driver win would do nicely. Or Kobyashi of course.
#263333
Answer to the question. Newey. Simples!

I would have said that previously and I did; but bigpat's post has made me think differently; Newey is obviously the driving force but he needs a top notch team or engineers, aerodynamicists etc to achieve what he has; I believe he has built his team over a number of years which would explain how the RB has gotten better over the years!


Id love to agree but ive never heard of a dominating car in F1 that didnt have something going for it, a single thing, that made it that much better

driver aids for williams in 93
Honda engines for Mclaren in 88 (and two top drivers)
double decker diffuser in 09
mass damper in 05

Im pessimistic if you like in believing a "harmonious" team has created that monster of a car, there something maybe illegal, maybe not, maybe internal maybe external that makes that car better then any other. Question is will we EVER find out what it was?


As for RBR's DRS being optimised for corners, if that were so, it wouldn't give them any speed advantage in the race, would it? And then the cars would be carrying too much rear downforce (hence drag), to compete when the DRS is closed ( and be worse off in terms of fuel economy). I believe thy can use their DRS in some corners simply due to the fact that they have a slightly better lift/drag ratio than other teams, allowing more downforce, with comparable drag to others. You don't need to be much more effective to make a big difference, as aero forces rise as a squared value as speed doubles.

The 93 Williams, had driver aids, ( active suspension, auto change )but so did McLaren, Ferrari, and Benetton. The chassis itself was still the lass of the field..

The 88 McLaren was a superb car itself. It was derived from the "lo-Line" 1986 Brabham BT55, also designed by Gordan Murray, which really lowered the centre of gravity of the car. No doubt the Honda engines were great, but when a car is 1.5 secs under the lap record on its first run at its first ever test, ( this story is folklore) it tells you how special it was. No engine alone is worth 1.5 sec in lap time.....

The Double deck diffusers of Brawn, Williams, Toyota etc, weren't the making of those cars either. When everyone else got theirs, the Brawn was still the best car out there. It took McLaren half the season to realise a DD is no use unless the front wing and endplates are optimised to send the air under the car correctly. Previously McLarens (since 1998) channeled the airflow from the wing inside the front wheels. Once they cahnge the concept, and expelled air OUTSIDE the front tyre, like the Brawn, then the car came alive. The DD didn't help Williams or Toyota dominate either......

As for the Mass Damper, yes, the Renault was slower after it was removed, but they still won races. Bob Bell recounted that the car was quick "straight out of the truck everywhere". That is when you know you're car is a winner. After they removed the MD's, Renault had to relocate 10 kgs of weight from the extremities of the car, to ballast on the floor, not a bad problem to have......

As an aside, when our racecars were up the front, they needed very little tweaking at the track, as the base setup we arrived with was very good itself.

Look at Williams 96/97, Mclaren in 98/99, Ferrari 2000-2004. They was no one magic ingredient in these dominant cars, just optimizing all the areas better than others.....
#263335
Answer to the question. Newey. Simples!

I would have said that previously and I did; but bigpat's post has made me think differently; Newey is obviously the driving force but he needs a top notch team or engineers, aerodynamicists etc to achieve what he has; I believe he has built his team over a number of years which would explain how the RB has gotten better over the years!


Id love to agree but ive never heard of a dominating car in F1 that didnt have something going for it, a single thing, that made it that much better

driver aids for williams in 93
Honda engines for Mclaren in 88 (and two top drivers)
double decker diffuser in 09
mass damper in 05

Im pessimistic if you like in believing a "harmonious" team has created that monster of a car, there something maybe illegal, maybe not, maybe internal maybe external that makes that car better then any other. Question is will we EVER find out what it was?


As for RBR's DRS being optimised for corners, if that were so, it wouldn't give them any speed advantage in the race, would it? And then the cars would be carrying too much rear downforce (hence drag), to compete when the DRS is closed ( and be worse off in terms of fuel economy). I believe thy can use their DRS in some corners simply due to the fact that they have a slightly better lift/drag ratio than other teams, allowing more downforce, with comparable drag to others. You don't need to be much more effective to make a big difference, as aero forces rise as a squared value as speed doubles.

The 93 Williams, had driver aids, ( active suspension, auto change )but so did McLaren, Ferrari, and Benetton. The chassis itself was still the lass of the field..

The 88 McLaren was a superb car itself. It was derived from the "lo-Line" 1986 Brabham BT55, also designed by Gordan Murray, which really lowered the centre of gravity of the car. No doubt the Honda engines were great, but when a car is 1.5 secs under the lap record on its first run at its first ever test, ( this story is folklore) it tells you how special it was. No engine alone is worth 1.5 sec in lap time.....

The Double deck diffusers of Brawn, Williams, Toyota etc, weren't the making of those cars either. When everyone else got theirs, the Brawn was still the best car out there. It took McLaren half the season to realise a DD is no use unless the front wing and endplates are optimised to send the air under the car correctly. Previously McLarens (since 1998) channeled the airflow from the wing inside the front wheels. Once they cahnge the concept, and expelled air OUTSIDE the front tyre, like the Brawn, then the car came alive. The DD didn't help Williams or Toyota dominate either......

As for the Mass Damper, yes, the Renault was slower after it was removed, but they still won races. Bob Bell recounted that the car was quick "straight out of the truck everywhere". That is when you know you're car is a winner. After they removed the MD's, Renault had to relocate 10 kgs of weight from the extremities of the car, to ballast on the floor, not a bad problem to have......

As an aside, when our racecars were up the front, they needed very little tweaking at the track, as the base setup we arrived with was very good itself.

Look at Williams 96/97, Mclaren in 98/99, Ferrari 2000-2004. They was no one magic ingredient in these dominant cars, just optimizing all the areas better than others.....

they got everything going and then they found ways to keep getting better and keep their level...
#263359

As for RBR's DRS being optimised for corners, if that were so, it wouldn't give them any speed advantage in the race, would it? And then the cars would be carrying too much rear downforce (hence drag), to compete when the DRS is closed ( and be worse off in terms of fuel economy). I believe thy can use their DRS in some corners simply due to the fact that they have a slightly better lift/drag ratio than other teams, allowing more downforce, with comparable drag to others. You don't need to be much more effective to make a big difference, as aero forces rise as a squared value as speed doubles.

:yes:
The extra downforce (probably coming from the more efficient EBD, at least partially) affords the RBs to use the DRS in quali where nobody else can, i.e., early on coming out of corners. This advantage might get taken away with the rule 'clarification' in Silverstone and poles might be a bit harder to achieve for SV.

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