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[What's Burning?]

I was simply playing off the fierce rivalry (and animosity) between northern and southern Italy to yank your chain

Shush it... do you want him to start playing off the fierce rivalry (and animosity) between northern and southern US to yank your chain?

Is there a fierce rivalry between north and south in the UK, near Silverstone, where this blown diffuser thing is being banned?

[bud]

I was simply playing off the fierce rivalry (and animosity) between northern and southern Italy to yank your chain

Shush it... do you want him to start playing off the fierce rivalry (and animosity) between northern and southern US to yank your chain?

Is there a fierce rivalry between north and south in the UK, near Silverstone, where this blown diffuser thing is being banned?

Scotland and England North and South Britain derrrr

[What's Burning?]

I was simply playing off the fierce rivalry (and animosity) between northern and southern Italy to yank your chain

Shush it... do you want him to start playing off the fierce rivalry (and animosity) between northern and southern US to yank your chain?

Is there a fierce rivalry between north and south in the UK, near Silverstone, where this blown diffuser thing is being banned?

Scotland and England North and South Britain derrrr

I was trying to use subtlety to bring this thread back on topic.

[darwin dali]

I was simply playing off the fierce rivalry (and animosity) between northern and southern Italy to yank your chain

Shush it... do you want him to start playing off the fierce rivalry (and animosity) between northern and southern US to yank your chain?

Is there a fierce rivalry between north and south in the UK, near Silverstone, where this blown diffuser thing is being banned?

I couldn't care less about north and south in the US - it's more about coastal vs. the fooking 'heartland' aka redneck country in the middle that is preferably flown over or driven through as fast as possible

[myownalias]

I was simply playing off the fierce rivalry (and animosity) between northern and southern Italy to yank your chain

Shush it... do you want him to start playing off the fierce rivalry (and animosity) between northern and southern US to yank your chain?

Is there a fierce rivalry between north and south in the UK, near Silverstone, where this blown diffuser thing is being banned?

I couldn't care less about north and south in the US - it's more about coastal vs. the fooking 'heartland' aka redneck country in the middle that is preferably flown over or driven through as fast as possible

Are you calling me a redneck? and yes; my car has two settings; GO and STOP, no need to drive slowly!

[texasmr2]

I was simply playing off the fierce rivalry (and animosity) between northern and southern Italy to yank your chain

Shush it... do you want him to start playing off the fierce rivalry (and animosity) between northern and southern US to yank your chain?

Is there a fierce rivalry between north and south in the UK, near Silverstone, where this blown diffuser thing is being banned?

I couldn't care less about north and south in the US - it's more about coastal vs. the fooking 'heartland' aka redneck country in the middle that is preferably flown over or driven through as fast as possible

Are you calling me a redneck? and yes; my car has two settings; GO and STOP, no need to drive slowly!

He is supposedly from Switzerland (which makes him a mutt) and possibly commutes between the Sour Apple and the Great White North yet seem's to know what REAL AMERICANS are about which is utter nonsense. Ignorance must be bliss for some . Go back too Switzerland DD if your gonna constantly bash America, we did not ask you too join us nor do we need you.
Hark hark hark I hear the UK calling you back home .

Oop's I guess that mean's my third warning from the forum nannies for having an opinion.

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

The previous iteration (1988) catapulted AN to designer stardom
You're sure it's blown?

Absitively and posilutely. Some of the 881s also had EBDs, possibly the ones March were campaigning into the 1989 season. Or perhaps they were proof of concept platforms for young AN's upstart ideas.

At this late date, good photographic evidence is difficult to come by but this grainy vintage photo shows the exhausts of an 881 joining to the diffuser. You can just make out the clamp used to fix them:



This is an 881 on sale today in Holland, complete with the original Judd engine pack. Where they join to the diffuser is hidden from sight but the exhausts disappear and there is no bracketry at the rear to support them if they were run out the back above the diffuser:



By comparison, this is a far better snap of a CG901, one season later than Gugelmin's ill-fated CG891 but there can be no doubt what's going on here:



The design is much refined and the execution far cleaner. But there is no doubt, March were running Adrian Newey-designed blown diffusers in the late 80s.

[racechick]

Hey thanks for the pep-up Bud

I've been through far worse times as a Tifosi, so this is no biggy. And, to be fair to myself (always like to do that) I did say that I don't think this is going to make much difference and that it was more likely to be down to incompetence rather than any conspiracy.

There is a positive to going through tough times, and that is you really do enjoy it when you start winning again. Having said that, I do remember how much it hurt watching my all time fave driver never able to win a championship because we just couldn't give him a good enough car - I really hope they make a Senna-like movie about Gilles, it would just be soooooo awesome.

This is one of my favourite pictures of the great GV, (I think if he drove today he'd cop a lot of the stick that gets leveled at Lewis).

Yes he would. He was a recer too! he was ACE!! Some drivers just have it, and he did!.................. This is getting scary!

[bud]

I doubt they had off throttle exhaust blown gas back then though.

[bigpat]

I doubt they had off throttle exhaust blown gas back then though.

And that is the point of the matter in my opinion...

The exhaust energy used to drive the diffuser when on throttle, making use of the spent gases. Very different to deliberately altering the engine map to optimise exhaust energy on the overrun....

At the end of the day, the spectator won't notice any change. Yes the teams that have optimised it will lose a little performance, and help the lower teams without EBD maps close the gap a little. In the overall pecking order, I don't predict a major shake up either. Remember the guys can still drag the throttle under braking to mimic the effect, as they did for years in the days of real blown diffusers and flat floors.

At the end of the day, the FIA is within its rights to ban it. Burning excess fuel never gives a good environmental image, and teams/ manufacturers were spending a lot of money for a small gain, not really feasible in reducing costs....

No doubt this change will improve the duty cycle of the engines, helping reliability in the long term.

[bud]

Having the driver drag the throttle through a corner is ok in the FIA's eyes? While it's being applied manually the engine is still making exhaust gas affect the cars aero in a way that is not in powering the wheels.

Would have been better to just leave this whole thing until seasons end!

[bigpat]

Of course it is. The driver has to manipulate both pedals, at his discretion, to drive the car. If you look at telemetry traces nowadays, there is already an overlap period between the two, due to drivers using both feet in the car(left foot braking), karting style...

Senna, Mansell, and Schumacher are all known exponenents of judicious left foot braking, particularly in higher speed corners.

At Monza in '96, Schumacher was known to heavily brake against engine power in the Parabolica, to provide more downforce in order to settle the rear end. Just a specific example....

[LewEngBridewell]

Source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92870

Red Bull's technical chief Adrian Newey believes his team will be affected "quite heavily" by the ban on off-throttle diffusers that comes into effect from this weekend's British Grand Prix.

"I think we will be quite heavily affected because our car was designed around the exhaust in as much as it was part of the design right from the outset," Newey told news agency Reuters.

"Probably with the exception of Renault and ourselves everybody else has generally speaking copied someone else's principal, mainly ours, and adapted to the car that they had pre-season.

"So it might therefore be, because our car has been designed around it, it's going to be more of a hit for us but it's very difficult to forecast."

"It's easy to fall into the Machiavellian conspiracy theories. Whether that's true or not, I don't know and I can't comment. My read of it would be that, of our main competitors, which are clearly McLaren and Ferrari, then Ferrari probably haven't got their exhaust to work that well so they are quite happy to see the back of it.

"McLaren probably don't know whether they are going to lose more or less than us. But probably on the basis that they could probably do with a wild card thrown into the pack, they are probably relieved to have something that is different," he added.

Is there a worry behind these words, or is it all false, thus giving McLaren and Ferrari false confidence?

In the meantime, McLaren are also worried about the potential effects of the diffuser ban on themselves...

We'll find out very soon.

[What's Burning?]

I think the interview is saying exactly what the facts are, no smoke in mirrors. It's simply logical that the car that optimised the overrun most would lose the most, and those with the least optimization would lose the least. All things being equal RB would have prefered to keep things as they were until the end of the season as they stand nothing to gain by the new interpretation of the rules.

If they're already comfortably ahead, why do they need more? Ferrari would love to have mechanical grip become more prevalent as that's their domain, McLaren can't catch up to the Red Bulls, so what's there to lose for them? Given this could see them come a tenth or two closer to the RB if it goes in their favor. If it doesn't, then they don't really lose anything, just stay statu quo.

We'll know a lot more Saturday afternoon, more still Sunday afternoon.

[Bulletproof]

From BBC F1;

McLaren and Red Bull team bosses Martin Whitmarsh and Christian Horner have engaged in a public row over the latest rule changes.

F1 bosses have restricted the use of exhausts to generate downforce, but the rules have changed after pressure from Red Bull's engine supplier Renault.

Whitmarsh fears Red Bull now have an advantage and complained the situation was "cloudy, ambiguous and changing".

Horner said governing body the FIA had been "right, fair and equitable".

In the same news conference, Team Lotus boss Tony Fernandes described the situation as "a little bit of a shambles".

Horner and Whitmarsh argued over which team had been given the biggest advantage following the latest in a series of rulings aimed at limiting a practice called off-throttle blowing of the diffuser, which has become a key issue in F1 in the last year.

This is where teams blow exhaust gases over the rear floor of the car even when the driver is not pressing the accelerator, smoothing the airflow and therefore increasing downforce and grip.

Horner said Renault had objected to an earlier ruling because it had given the Mercedes-powered teams, including McLaren, an advantage over Red Bull.

Whitmarsh believes Red Bull now have an advantage after the latest change.

The issue has been complicated by the fact that all engines work differently, so it is impossible to impose a uniform ruling.

Continue reading the main story
As far as we understood, before Renault were allowed their parameters, there was a significant advantage going to any Mercedes-powered team
Christian Horner
Red Bull team boss
Renault and Red Bull had objected to a decision by the FIA to allow Mercedes to introduce fuel on the over-run - when the engine is being used for braking.

Although the engine is reduced to running on only four of its eight cylinders at this point, this will inevitably lead to some blowing of the diffuser, and therefore the creation of some downforce.

Renault, by contrast, does not fuel its engine on the over-run and argued that it should be allowed to compensate by opening the throttles to a specific amount, something it says it has always done to ensure reliability.

The FIA has accepted Renault's argument and the French company will now be allowed to run its engines on 50% throttle when the driver is not pressing the accelerator.

This has angered their rival teams, as the initial intention of the ruling was to limit throttle opening to 10% when the driver lifts off.

The public argument between Horner and Whitmarsh was prompted when BBC Sport asked in an official news conference how, under these circumstances, it could be guaranteed that all teams were competing on an equal footing.

Horner said: "As far as we understood, before Renault were allowed their parameters, there was a significant advantage going to any Mercedes-powered team."

Whitmarsh said the ruling meant a "very substantial performance benefit" for Renault.

Horner disputed that, saying: "Let's not make any mistake here. Firing on over-run, the thrust that that generates through the exhaust, generates a bigger effect. Let's just be absolutely clear on that."

Whitmarsh said he expected Renault's rivals to go back to the FIA to demand that they, too, be allowed to introduce air through open throttles on corner entry.

Both men agreed that the FIA should have changed the rule at the end of the season to avoid the controversy on what Horner described as a "massively complex subject".



Now I'm no expert on this but from my little knowledge on the subject surely all teams should be allowed to run 50% of engine when braking, to have one rule for all, and if Mercedes do something differently on the over-run then surely it's the other teams job to change there car to do this as well. I see it as totally unfair to allow some teams to run on different rules to others.

All looks a bit of a mess to be honest!