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[billindenver]

I'm not saying they go hand in hand, I'm trying to gather information as to why people like him or don't like him. It would seem that the people that like him, don't mind his personality (for whatever reason) and they focus on simply his driving style. The people that don't like him choose not to separate or are unable to separate the two.

I also don't think it's fair to compare anyone to a bloody great driver from the past because because it could never be a direct comparison and the media environment today would spit up and chew out probably a great deal of those bloody great drivers if they were reported on the same way the internet/media reports on drivers today.

I'm not condoning what he does off track, I'm simply looking at what happens on track, perhaps this is one of the reasons Hamilton is so polarizing. In this situation his arrogance has absolutely nothing to do with his driving or absolutely nothing to do with him being over rated as the OP asks and as Kobayashi's driving style is directly equivalent to Hamilton's driving style yet is generally praised, It's just a personal dislike of his personality that seems to be the deciding factor.

There is a distinct difference between aggressive and disrespectful. There is a distinct difference between exerting your will over a guy in front of you and making him choose between a life risking crash or giving you the position. Aggression is to be admired in a racing driver....dangerous risk is not.

You often say things like what you've said above. Insisting that those who like Hamilton do so because they admire his skill, while those who do not do so because they can't separate track performance from his inflated ego off track. The truth is, his off track personality is exactly the same as his on track personality. He couldn't care less about other drivers and has as much as said so many times to the press. Has no respect for them on or off track and doesn't mind endangering their lives by forcing issues that are simply ridiculous. This weekend's punt of Massa is the perfect example. That 'to hell with the consequences, get out of my way or crash' attitude is dangerous. Unfortunately, for fans such as yourself...it will take someone seriously getting hurt before you admit it (if you admit it even then). Other drivers have complained...often...and at least once en masse.

While it may be easier for you to believe that fans like me dislike Hamilton because we don't really know his soft and cuddly side...the truth of the matter is I liked him when he first arrived on scene, but his disrespectful actions on track and comments about and towards other drivers offends me. This past weekend he showed us that his attitude has not changed at all. Other drivers are ridiculous...stupid....that is what he said and how he feels. He is a spoiled, temper tantrum throwing little brat...and while he does on occasion pull off a masterful pass or two....he has NEVER strung together a perfect series of races or anything like it. His mistakes number very nearly as high as his accomplishments and are far more costly than his accomplishments are rewarding. Sure, he can pull of an unbelievable pass....only to crash out the next race going for a pass on a car that will have to pit in a lap or two. It's the same thing year after year. I suppose if you have blinders on and never see a single mistake of his as his fault...then perhaps he is as perfect in your mind as a few of you claim. But if you look back over the years at his accomplishments AND his mistakes...you will see that he is not even close to the best on the grid let alone the god he is called in here. He is aggressive yes...and that can be fun to watch, but he has no filter of when that aggression is or is not appropriate....so he pushes backmarkers off the track and then calls them monkeys at the back or he runs into cars that are on the racing line...claiming they should have moved out of his way.

What is ridiculous to me is even after a race as clearly horrible as this past one. Even after he pulls that ludicrous race card he pulled in Monaco...some of you STILL claim he makes no mistakes. I mean damn man, how clear cut does it have to be?

Alonso 2007/2010

Seriously? Alonso cost his team last year's championship with mistakes? That is funny right there. You know how far behind they were at the halfway mark? And 2007? You really are reaching. Alonso has in the past been a whiny baby and deserving of his criticism...but you simply can't compare his list of on track mistakes nor his off track insults of other drivers to Hamiltons. It's not even close.

[f1ea]

Hamilton is overrated.

Many people, including himself, think he is the best there is. When he simply and obviously isn't. Surely could win some more championships, he's quite young; but today, Hamilton is neither a leader nor a team player.

[FRAFPDD]

I'm not saying they go hand in hand, I'm trying to gather information as to why people like him or don't like him. It would seem that the people that like him, don't mind his personality (for whatever reason) and they focus on simply his driving style. The people that don't like him choose not to separate or are unable to separate the two.

I also don't think it's fair to compare anyone to a bloody great driver from the past because because it could never be a direct comparison and the media environment today would spit up and chew out probably a great deal of those bloody great drivers if they were reported on the same way the internet/media reports on drivers today.

I'm not condoning what he does off track, I'm simply looking at what happens on track, perhaps this is one of the reasons Hamilton is so polarizing. In this situation his arrogance has absolutely nothing to do with his driving or absolutely nothing to do with him being over rated as the OP asks and as Kobayashi's driving style is directly equivalent to Hamilton's driving style yet is generally praised, It's just a personal dislike of his personality that seems to be the deciding factor.

There is a distinct difference between aggressive and disrespectful. There is a distinct difference between exerting your will over a guy in front of you and making him choose between a life risking crash or giving you the position. Aggression is to be admired in a racing driver....dangerous risk is not.

You often say things like what you've said above. Insisting that those who like Hamilton do so because they admire his skill, while those who do not do so because they can't separate track performance from his inflated ego off track. The truth is, his off track personality is exactly the same as his on track personality. He couldn't care less about other drivers and has as much as said so many times to the press. Has no respect for them on or off track and doesn't mind endangering their lives by forcing issues that are simply ridiculous. This weekend's punt of Massa is the perfect example. That 'to hell with the consequences, get out of my way or crash' attitude is dangerous. Unfortunately, for fans such as yourself...it will take someone seriously getting hurt before you admit it (if you admit it even then). Other drivers have complained...often...and at least once en masse.

While it may be easier for you to believe that fans like me dislike Hamilton because we don't really know his soft and cuddly side...the truth of the matter is I liked him when he first arrived on scene, but his disrespectful actions on track and comments about and towards other drivers offends me. This past weekend he showed us that his attitude has not changed at all. Other drivers are ridiculous...stupid....that is what he said and how he feels. He is a spoiled, temper tantrum throwing little brat...and while he does on occasion pull off a masterful pass or two....he has NEVER strung together a perfect series of races or anything like it. His mistakes number very nearly as high as his accomplishments and are far more costly than his accomplishments are rewarding. Sure, he can pull of an unbelievable pass....only to crash out the next race going for a pass on a car that will have to pit in a lap or two. It's the same thing year after year. I suppose if you have blinders on and never see a single mistake of his as his fault...then perhaps he is as perfect in your mind as a few of you claim. But if you look back over the years at his accomplishments AND his mistakes...you will see that he is not even close to the best on the grid let alone the god he is called in here. He is aggressive yes...and that can be fun to watch, but he has no filter of when that aggression is or is not appropriate....so he pushes backmarkers off the track and then calls them monkeys at the back or he runs into cars that are on the racing line...claiming they should have moved out of his way.

What is ridiculous to me is even after a race as clearly horrible as this past one. Even after he pulls that ludicrous race card he pulled in Monaco...some of you STILL claim he makes no mistakes. I mean damn man, how clear cut does it have to be?

Alonso 2007/2010

Seriously? Alonso cost his team last year's championship with mistakes? That is funny right there. You know how far behind they were at the halfway mark? And 2007? You really are reaching. Alonso has in the past been a whiny baby and deserving of his criticism...but you simply can't compare his list of on track mistakes nor his off track insults of other drivers to Hamiltons. It's not even close.

I get the feeling your not his biggest fan

I hope you realise the irony in what your saying, the same people that defend him no matter what, your the same person that always berates him? Or is that not true?

You cant exactly mirror what im saying back to me and call me a Hamilton fanboy either, or hater, im his fan, and im his harshest critic sometimes on here.

So what can you actually say to what ive just said?

At least you acknowledge Alonso has been a whiny baby, if only cause it shows its not a pure hatred for Hamilton. And whilst i understand comlpletely your ideas on Hamilton, i think you are far too often looking for flaws rather then letting them find you. You alienate the reasonable fans on here with your unflinching criticism of hamilton, and you focus all your time on the pointless arguments with those that would kiss his face had he turned out a paedophile.

Whats more damning, the question asked of us, is whether hes over-rated and will he win another wdc...why are we talking about his personality?

[FRAFPDD]

Hamilton is overrated.

Many people, including himself, think he is the best there is. When he simply and obviously isn't. Surely could win some more championships, he's quite young; but today, Hamilton is neither a leader nor a team player.

Your posession of objectivity just went flying out my window, congrats.

[billindenver]

I get the feeling your not his biggest fan

I hope you realise the irony in what your saying, the same people that defend him no matter what, your the same person that always berates him? Or is that not true?

You cant exactly mirror what im saying back to me and call me a Hamilton fanboy either, or hater, im his fan, and im his harshest critic sometimes on here.

So what can you actually say to what ive just said?

At least you acknowledge Alonso has been a whiny baby, if only cause it shows its not a pure hatred for Hamilton. And whilst i understand comlpletely your ideas on Hamilton, i think you are far too often looking for flaws rather then letting them find you. You alienate the reasonable fans on here with your unflinching criticism of hamilton, and you focus all your time on the pointless arguments with those that would kiss his face had he turned out a paedophile.

Whats more damning, the question asked of us, is whether hes over-rated and will he win another wdc...why are we talking about his personality?

I have several times this season complimented Hamilton. Do a search.

The problem is, I had no sooner said his attitude had changed and his driving gotten more mature.....before he performed both flaws in the same weekend. Is he as bad as he once was? Probably not (though the race card thing is the worst comment he has ever made in public).

The truth is I love an aggressive drive. It is, for me, the epitome of racing...but it must be done with some sort of respect for other drivers safety at least. It is not difficult to be aggressive with no regard for other drivers and no regard for preserving the car. Hell, every amateur racing in Spec Miata proves that every day. If the car means nothing to you and putting others into a wall is as good as pulling off a clean pass....aggression is quite easy. I just don't respect that attitude. Racing, to me, is more about the skill of doing it better than the other guy than it is the strength to shove them aside. Race like a gentleman.....an aggressive gentleman, but a one none the less. That is what Hamilton is missing in my mind...as well as the ability to dance on the line without making the mistake of crossing it. Others disagree and the spec miata class is the largest in SCCA....but it's not my thing.

[youtube]kvNylkt0uvc[/youtube]

To answer your direct question though. Yes he is over rated...but over rated drivers have in the past squeaked by a championship win. 2008 for example. Will he? Maybe.

[F1er]

Hamilton is overrated.

Many people, including himself, think he is the best there is. When he simply and obviously isn't. Surely could win some more championships, he's quite young; but today, Hamilton is neither a leader nor a team player.

So mind you,who do you think can beat Lewis in the same car throughout a season?

[FRAFPDD]

I get the feeling your not his biggest fan

I hope you realise the irony in what your saying, the same people that defend him no matter what, your the same person that always berates him? Or is that not true?

You cant exactly mirror what im saying back to me and call me a Hamilton fanboy either, or hater, im his fan, and im his harshest critic sometimes on here.

So what can you actually say to what ive just said?

At least you acknowledge Alonso has been a whiny baby, if only cause it shows its not a pure hatred for Hamilton. And whilst i understand comlpletely your ideas on Hamilton, i think you are far too often looking for flaws rather then letting them find you. You alienate the reasonable fans on here with your unflinching criticism of hamilton, and you focus all your time on the pointless arguments with those that would kiss his face had he turned out a paedophile.

Whats more damning, the question asked of us, is whether hes over-rated and will he win another wdc...why are we talking about his personality?

I have several times this season complimented Hamilton. Do a search.

The problem is, I had no sooner said his attitude had changed and his driving gotten more mature.....before he performed both flaws in the same weekend. Is he as bad as he once was? Probably not (though the race card thing is the worst comment he has ever made in public).

The truth is I love an aggressive drive. It is, for me, the epitome of racing...but it must be done with some sort of respect for other drivers safety at least. It is not difficult to be aggressive with no regard for other drivers and no regard for preserving the car. Hell, every amateur racing in Spec Miata proves that every day. If the car means nothing to you and putting others into a wall is as good as pulling off a clean pass....aggression is quite easy. I just don't respect that attitude. Racing, to me, is more about the skill of doing it better than the other guy than it is the strength to shove them aside. Race like a gentleman.....an aggressive gentleman, but a one none the less. That is what Hamilton is missing in my mind...as well as the ability to dance on the line without making the mistake of crossing it. Others disagree and the spec miata class is the largest in SCCA....but it's not my thing.

To answer your direct question though. Yes he is over rated...but over rated drivers have in the past squeaked by a championship win. 2008 for example. Will he? Maybe.

I just cant agree, we'll have to leave it at that. Cause i find it ludicrous what your saying.

[FRAFPDD]

Hamilton is overrated.

Many people, including himself, think he is the best there is. When he simply and obviously isn't. Surely could win some more championships, he's quite young; but today, Hamilton is neither a leader nor a team player.

So mind you,who do you think can beat Lewis in the same car throughout a season?

Your wasting your time. Not specifically with f1ea, but anyone thats going to say he "OBVIOUSLY isnt the best" " hes overrated"

What the actual does he have to do, for people to acknowledge his talent.His outstanding talent.

[F1er]

Bill, a conscious mind knows that all the top drivers are pompous arseholes,the greater the driver the bigger his ego. Alonso,Vettel,Schumacher,Senna etc all have DISRESPECTED a fellow driver their team or whomever.

Doesn't Alonso always say "I'm not in F1 to make friends''

[billindenver]

Bill, a conscious mind knows that all the top drivers are pompous arseholes,the greater the driver the bigger his ego. Alonso,Vettel,Schumacher,Senna etc all have DISRESPECTED a fellow driver their team or whomever.

Doesn't Alonso always say "I'm not in F1 to make friends''

And don't I also criticize Alonso? The problem that most often occurs in here is someone says something not complimentary about Hamilton...and the Hamilton fanboys say 'Well, what about XXXXX". Instead of just admitting that the race card should never be played, or drivers should never be called monkeys at the back or hairbrained moves up the inside are a mistake.....you say well Bernie said the black faced fans were just joking, or Webber once collided with Hamilton. It's never about whether or not your guy did something wrong....it's about deflecting that and focusing attention elsewhere. Never admitting he is less than perfect. I find that irritating...so I point out his flaws for you. It's an endless dance we do...

Next, the two step....

[F1er]

Most F1 fans suffer from 5 and 6.

The basic tenets of psychoanalysis include the following claims:

1. human behavior is determined by irrational drives;
2. those drives are largely not conscious;
3. attempt to bring those drives into awareness meets defense (resistance) in many different forms;
4. beside the inherited constitution of personality, one's development is determined by events in early childhood;
5. conflicts between conscious view of reality and unconscious (repressed) material can result in mental disturbances such as neurosis, neurotic traits, anxiety, depression etc.;
6. the liberation from the effects of the unconscious material is achieved through bringing this material into the consciousness (via e.g. skilled guidance)

[What's Burning?]

I'm not saying they go hand in hand, I'm trying to gather information as to why people like him or don't like him. It would seem that the people that like him, don't mind his personality (for whatever reason) and they focus on simply his driving style. The people that don't like him choose not to separate or are unable to separate the two.

I also don't think it's fair to compare anyone to a bloody great driver from the past because because it could never be a direct comparison and the media environment today would spit up and chew out probably a great deal of those bloody great drivers if they were reported on the same way the internet/media reports on drivers today.

I'm not condoning what he does off track, I'm simply looking at what happens on track, perhaps this is one of the reasons Hamilton is so polarizing. In this situation his arrogance has absolutely nothing to do with his driving or absolutely nothing to do with him being over rated as the OP asks and as Kobayashi's driving style is directly equivalent to Hamilton's driving style yet is generally praised, It's just a personal dislike of his personality that seems to be the deciding factor.

There is a distinct difference between aggressive and disrespectful. There is a distinct difference between exerting your will over a guy in front of you and making him choose between a life risking crash or giving you the position. Aggression is to be admired in a racing driver....dangerous risk is not.

You often say things like what you've said above. Insisting that those who like Hamilton do so because they admire his skill, while those who do not do so because they can't separate track performance from his inflated ego off track. The truth is, his off track personality is exactly the same as his on track personality. He couldn't care less about other drivers and has as much as said so many times to the press. Has no respect for them on or off track and doesn't mind endangering their lives by forcing issues that are simply ridiculous. This weekend's punt of Massa is the perfect example. That 'to hell with the consequences, get out of my way or crash' attitude is dangerous. Unfortunately, for fans such as yourself...it will take someone seriously getting hurt before you admit it (if you admit it even then). Other drivers have complained...often...and at least once en masse.

While it may be easier for you to believe that fans like me dislike Hamilton because we don't really know his soft and cuddly side...the truth of the matter is I liked him when he first arrived on scene, but his disrespectful actions on track and comments about and towards other drivers offends me. This past weekend he showed us that his attitude has not changed at all. Other drivers are ridiculous...stupid....that is what he said and how he feels. He is a spoiled, temper tantrum throwing little brat...and while he does on occasion pull off a masterful pass or two....he has NEVER strung together a perfect series of races or anything like it. His mistakes number very nearly as high as his accomplishments and are far more costly than his accomplishments are rewarding. Sure, he can pull of an unbelievable pass....only to crash out the next race going for a pass on a car that will have to pit in a lap or two. It's the same thing year after year. I suppose if you have blinders on and never see a single mistake of his as his fault...then perhaps he is as perfect in your mind as a few of you claim. But if you look back over the years at his accomplishments AND his mistakes...you will see that he is not even close to the best on the grid let alone the god he is called in here. He is aggressive yes...and that can be fun to watch, but he has no filter of when that aggression is or is not appropriate....so he pushes backmarkers off the track and then calls them monkeys at the back or he runs into cars that are on the racing line...claiming they should have moved out of his way.

What is ridiculous to me is even after a race as clearly horrible as this past one. Even after he pulls that ludicrous race card he pulled in Monaco...some of you STILL claim he makes no mistakes. I mean damn man, how clear cut does it have to be?

I'm not insisting a thing, I'm summarizing what others have said pro or con in this thread, you'd agree there's a pattern forming.

It's your opinion, and you are very selective of your facts in voicing it, disregarding numerous examples of others doing the same. You make generalizations in the same manner that you chastise his "fanboys" for doing the same thing. So no, I'm not insisting in the slightest simply summarizing what the responses here have cited, the very same factor, they don't like his personality but they agree that he's a driving talent. So everything you've stated above has been said, the disdain is simply the billindenver seal of disapproval.

Ask yourself why McLaren disagrees with your assessment, or perhaps Red Bull, or Ferrari. I give their opinion a hell of a lot more weight.

[F1er]

Bill, a conscious mind knows that all the top drivers are pompous arseholes,the greater the driver the bigger his ego. Alonso,Vettel,Schumacher,Senna etc all have DISRESPECTED a fellow driver their team or whomever.

Doesn't Alonso always say "I'm not in F1 to make friends''

And don't I also criticize Alonso? The problem that most often occurs in here is someone says something not complimentary about Hamilton...and the Hamilton fanboys say 'Well, what about XXXXX". Instead of just admitting that the race card should never be played, or drivers should never be called monkeys at the back or hairbrained moves up the inside are a mistake.....you say well Bernie said the black faced fans were just joking, or Webber once collided with Hamilton. It's never about whether or not your guy did something wrong....it's about deflecting that and focusing attention elsewhere. Never admitting he is less than perfect. I find that irritating...so I point out his flaws for you. It's an endless dance we do...

Next, the two step....

There are no perfect people in the world.
but Lewis detractors do exaggerate everything thus his fans are always defensive.

[billindenver]

I'm not insisting a thing, I'm summarizing what others have said pro or con in this thread, you'd agree there's a pattern forming.

It's your opinion, and you are very selective of your facts in voicing it, disregarding numerous examples of others doing the same. You make generalizations in the same manner that you chastise his "fanboys" for doing the same thing. So no, I'm not insisting in the slightest simply summarizing what the responses here have cited, the very same factor, they don't like his personality but they agree that he's a driving talent. So everything you've stated above has been said, the disdain is simply the billindenver seal of disapproval.

Ask yourself why McLaren disagrees with your assessment, or perhaps Red Bull, or Ferrari. I give their opinion a hell of a lot more weight.

So, you are stating an opinion that is not yours? You are summarizing what others have said, take no ownership of it...and yet defend it. Pretty odd, but however you choose to waste your time is your own business.

No, I do not agree with the pattern you have thrown out there...and I stated my reasons pretty clearly. People are in fact capable of disliking Hamilton without it being for the ludicrous reasons you often throw out in a veiled attempt to discredit those who disagree with you. You claim, yet again, he is disliked due to his personality but his talent is accepted......and I believe one can have talent while not being a great driver, nor a respectful one. Personality, in the car...on the track, is relevant when that personality shows disdain for other competitors. That personality or lack thereof is part of one's driving talent. Pulling off a great pass is not the only skill a 'great' driver must show.

[What's Burning?]

I'm not insisting a thing, I'm summarizing what others have said pro or con in this thread, you'd agree there's a pattern forming.

It's your opinion, and you are very selective of your facts in voicing it, disregarding numerous examples of others doing the same. You make generalizations in the same manner that you chastise his "fanboys" for doing the same thing. So no, I'm not insisting in the slightest simply summarizing what the responses here have cited, the very same factor, they don't like his personality but they agree that he's a driving talent. So everything you've stated above has been said, the disdain is simply the billindenver seal of disapproval.

Ask yourself why McLaren disagrees with your assessment, or perhaps Red Bull, or Ferrari. I give their opinion a hell of a lot more weight.

So, you are stating an opinion that is not yours? You are summarizing what others have said, take no ownership of it...and yet defend it. Pretty odd, but however you choose to waste your time is your own business.

No, I do not agree with the pattern you have thrown out there...and I stated my reasons pretty clearly. People are in fact capable of disliking Hamilton without it being for the ludicrous reasons you often throw out in a veiled attempt to discredit those who disagree with you. You claim, yet again, he is disliked due to his personality but his talent is accepted......and I believe one can have talent while not being a great driver, nor a respectful one. Personality, in the car...on the track, is relevant when that personality shows disdain for other competitors. That personality or lack thereof is part of one's driving talent. Pulling off a great pass is not the only skill a 'great' driver must show.

Your reputation precedes you billindenver. While others have said the same thing you're saying, you're the first to begin throwing stones at the points of views of others and no one would find that surprising. Let's agree to strongly disagree, and continue to make posts on this thread that are free from chastising others who's opinions you don't like.

McLaren disagrees with you.