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[scotty]

Well, he is overrated in some quarters in that some people would try and tell you he's already the greatest F1 driver ever, which is quite clearly untrue. However he's not overrated in the sense that he is really one of the top drivers currently on the grid (him and Alonso are the outright best in my book) and i'd be absolutely amazed if he didn't win more titles. You never know though Makes me laugh when people try and scapegoat McLaren though - they're always there in the mix at the front and capable of winning (save for the first part of '09 which was mixed up anyway), and it's not like going head to head with Adrian Newey is exactly easy.

Strengths - raw speed and ability to get the best out of the car, and his ability when fighting cars on track. Incredibly good on the brakes (a large part of his ability to overtake).
Weaknesses - mental side is questionable at times. Overaggressive and over zealous, and sometimes lacks concentration leading to very odd and basic mistakes.

[What's Burning?]

I think there are people predisposed to like Hamilton's style and others predisposed not to like it, it's what creates such a polarizing figure. I don't think anyone would genuinely criticize his talent, when they're criticizing his technique. If you separate the man from the results it's hard to objectively say that his results don't speak for themselves, hence the suspect attempt at the OP's posted questions.

It's also interesting that the same arguments given against Lewis are seen as entertaining in Kobayashi... we'd have to ask why that is and the only thing I can come up with is his personality is not abrasive? for lack of a better word as Lewis' is perceived to be.

I know Jenson Button, and Fernando Alonso wouldn't say Lewis is over rated, certainly McLaren wouldn't either, so to ask if a driver that's universally agreed by about every member of this forum to be one of the top three drivers currently in the sport is over rated tells me we're discussing a personality rather than a talent, a preference of style rather than a question of his value.

And four pages worth and no name calling on a Lewis Hamilton thread....

Ahhh optimism.

[scotty]

For me it has nothing to do with his driving style, i cannot stand his personality.

[What's Burning?]

For me it has nothing to do with his driving style, i cannot stand his personality.

I'm glad you put it that way as it is certainly understandable. I can also say that if it were another same type personality sports figure we were talking about, in Football, Cycling, Baseball, Hockey, whatever... that it would bother me just the same as it does you. I'd rather have someone that just gets on with it. But for some reason, in this sport where they put their life on the line every time you get behind the wheel, it's something that's very understandable to me. It's a very real risk and therefore understandable.

It's also something that's understandable to me because when I've gotten behind the wheel of a car on a track or been in a Kart competing against peers, I've experienced that need to win, need to get a better time and need to say I bested them and the only thing that's ever brought that out in me is racing.

[What's Burning?]

bud?

[scotty]

For me it has nothing to do with his driving style, i cannot stand his personality.

I'm glad you put it that way as it is certainly understandable. I can also say that if it were another same type personality sports figure we were talking about, in Football, Cycling, Baseball, Hockey, whatever... that it would bother me just the same as it does you. I'd rather have someone that just gets on with it. But for some reason, in this sport where they put their life on the line every time you get behind the wheel, it's something that's very understandable to me. It's a very real risk and therefore understandable.

It's also something that's understandable to me because when I've gotten behind the wheel of a car on a track or been in a Kart competing against peers, I've experienced that need to win, need to get a better time and need to say I bested them and the only thing that's ever brought that out in me is racing.

I'm not sure exactly what aspect you are condoning here (competitiveness?) but for me, the arrogance is completely unnecessary and categorically not admissible in this situation. There have been many bloody incredible drivers who do not have that type of personality, so the two don't need to go hand in hand or anything like that.

[FRAFPDD]

For me it has nothing to do with his driving style, i cannot stand his personality.

I'm glad you put it that way as it is certainly understandable. I can also say that if it were another same type personality sports figure we were talking about, in Football, Cycling, Baseball, Hockey, whatever... that it would bother me just the same as it does you. I'd rather have someone that just gets on with it. But for some reason, in this sport where they put their life on the line every time you get behind the wheel, it's something that's very understandable to me. It's a very real risk and therefore understandable.

It's also something that's understandable to me because when I've gotten behind the wheel of a car on a track or been in a Kart competing against peers, I've experienced that need to win, need to get a better time and need to say I bested them and the only thing that's ever brought that out in me is racing.

I'm not sure exactly what aspect you are condoning here (competitiveness?) but for me, the arrogance is completely unnecessary and categorically not admissible in this situation. There have been many bloody incredible drivers who do not have that type of personality, so the two don't need to go hand in hand or anything like that.

First things first, i dont mean/intend to sound confrontational with this, its a question id like to know your thoughts on.

Do you agree Senna was not also the characteristics, almost mirrored in Hamilton today.

There is not one characteristic of Senna i dont see in Hamilton.

-outstanding ability in the wet
- need to push for wins, always pushing for another place, never settling for where you are
- overtaking ability, albeit, senna wasnt actually reknowned for it.
- arrogance


And yet Senna is somehow pardoned of all his (many) faults, thats assuming people even acknowledge he had them. Lewis on the other hand is the undisuted master of polarising popular opinion. Infact, most of his fan base is British, and even half of us cant stand him. There arent actually pockets of support in any other place in the world, just single fans dotted around the globe.

I want to know what seperates the two? Why Lewis loses support over it and Senna posthumously gains it. Its exactly the same thing. Not to mention Lewis doesnt go punching people that wont get out the way, nor does he chose to win championships by crashing into rivals.

[vaptin]

Cos Senna died tragically.

I probably need to lie low for a fewdays after saying that. But I think that genuinely has an effect, added to the usual nostalgia.

[What's Burning?]

For me it has nothing to do with his driving style, i cannot stand his personality.

I'm glad you put it that way as it is certainly understandable. I can also say that if it were another same type personality sports figure we were talking about, in Football, Cycling, Baseball, Hockey, whatever... that it would bother me just the same as it does you. I'd rather have someone that just gets on with it. But for some reason, in this sport where they put their life on the line every time you get behind the wheel, it's something that's very understandable to me. It's a very real risk and therefore understandable.

It's also something that's understandable to me because when I've gotten behind the wheel of a car on a track or been in a Kart competing against peers, I've experienced that need to win, need to get a better time and need to say I bested them and the only thing that's ever brought that out in me is racing.

I'm not sure exactly what aspect you are condoning here (competitiveness?) but for me, the arrogance is completely unnecessary and categorically not admissible in this situation. There have been many bloody incredible drivers who do not have that type of personality, so the two don't need to go hand in hand or anything like that.

I'm not saying they go hand in hand, I'm trying to gather information as to why people like him or don't like him. It would seem that the people that like him, don't mind his personality (for whatever reason) and they focus on simply his driving style. The people that don't like him choose not to separate or are unable to separate the two.

I also don't think it's fair to compare anyone to a bloody great driver from the past because because it could never be a direct comparison and the media environment today would spit up and chew out probably a great deal of those bloody great drivers if they were reported on the same way the internet/media reports on drivers today.

I'm not condoning what he does off track, I'm simply looking at what happens on track, perhaps this is one of the reasons Hamilton is so polarizing. In this situation his arrogance has absolutely nothing to do with his driving or absolutely nothing to do with him being over rated as the OP asks and as Kobayashi's driving style is directly equivalent to Hamilton's driving style yet is generally praised, It's just a personal dislike of his personality that seems to be the deciding factor.

[scotty]

Do you agree Senna was not also the characteristics, almost mirrored in Hamilton today.

There is not one characteristic of Senna i dont see in Hamilton.

-outstanding ability in the wet
- need to push for wins, always pushing for another place, never settling for where you are
- overtaking ability, albeit, senna wasnt actually reknowned for it.
- arrogance

Actually i think Senna and Hamilton's personalties are quite different, and while there are parallels in their driving you could apply the same thing to a lot of drivers - so i've never really gotten why those two are especially compared. Senna had a very philosophical approach to life and racing and some of his reasoning and actions were affected by that side of him, a side that Hamilton doesn't seem to really have in my view.

I'm not condoning what he does off track, I'm simply looking at what happens on track, perhaps this is one of the reasons Hamilton is so polarizing. In this situation his arrogance has absolutely nothing to do with his driving or absolutely nothing to do with him being over rated as the OP asks and as Kobayashi's driving style is directly equivalent to Hamilton's driving style, It's just a personal dislike of his personality that seems to be the deciding factor.

Yes, i'd say that is my perspective.

[myownalias]

Not to make this a Senna thread (I believe it's relevant as Hamilton idolises him) but Senna drove in a different time when the FIA mentality was much different; in today's health and safety FIA; the sort of driver that Senna was would be obsolete and in reality Senna probably wouldn't have raced in F1 with the mentality he had. Which is where we come to Lewis; throwing the car down the inside expecting the sea to part allowing an easy pass is dead and buried. In many cases in which a collision has occurred, this is the situation, Lewis was in no way ahead of Massa or Maldonado in Monaco; the right thing to do would have been to back out of the pass; but he didn't and a crash ensued ending the race of both drivers he collided with, which is unacceptable to today's F1.

Is he overrated? yes and no; I believe he is far from the complete driver he needs to be to become a multiple world champion; but he does have awesome talent behind the wheel of an F1 car; he just needs to think a little before making passing attempts like he did in Monaco; Martin Brundle said it best "Lewis can't keep on blaming everyone else, it's not always someone else's fault".

[F1er]

Anybody that thinks that Lewis is over rated and claims to be a knowledgeable F1 fan, needs their head examined.

Just answer me this.................who has beaten Lewis in the same car? And to my knowledge he's had some pretty good teammates.

And let me play along with (if) he is over rated.............where does that leave Jenson Button who can not beat Lewis in a straight up fight???

[What's Burning?]

Not to make this a Senna thread (I believe it's relevant as Hamilton idolises him) but Senna drove in a different time when the FIA mentality was much different; in today's health and safety FIA; the sort of driver that Senna was would be obsolete and in reality Senna probably wouldn't have raced in F1 with the mentality he had. Which is where we come to Lewis; throwing the car down the inside expecting the sea to part allowing an easy pass is dead and buried. In many cases in which a collision has occurred, this is the situation, Lewis was in no way ahead of Massa or Maldonado in Monaco; the right thing to do would have been to back out of the pass; but he didn't and a crash ensued ending the race of both drivers he collided with, which is unacceptable to today's F1.

Is he overrated? yes and no; I believe he is far from the complete driver he needs to be to become a multiple world champion; but he does have awesome talent behind the wheel of an F1 car; he just needs to think a little before making passing attempts like he did in Monaco; Martin Brundle said it best "Lewis can't keep on blaming everyone else, it's not always someone else's fault".

And I guess the only ones that would have to answer that question would be McLaren. Does the value that Lewis brings to the team, does the fact that he can get more out of a car than most, does the fact that he can be competitive in a non dominant car, outweigh the blown opportunities because of that same style. So you can't condemn something on one hand and praise it on the other. If the Lewis style is what gets you close you can't blame the Lewis style when it fails you, you either accept it or you don't and it's pretty clear that McLaren accept it. Perhaps they're hedging their bets somewhat by having the other team driver be Jenson Button.

Given the thoughts and opinions on the topic it's clear that difference of acceptance of his personality or the perception of his personality as a liability is the dividing line.

[Bear]

I liken Hamilton to C.Ronaldo.

At first he was immature, hogged the ball, blamed others, tried things that were never there.

A few years later he turned into a phenomenal midfielder for Man Utd.

I dislike Hamilton, alot, but he is a great driver.

When he stops playing the race card, going for overtakes that aren't there and blaming others for his mistakes, he will win a WDC again.

[myownalias]

And let me play along with (if) he is over rated.............where does that leave Jenson Button who can not beat Lewis in a straight up fight???

The difference is that no-one ever really rates Jenson Button do they? I've heard everything from "he's just plain slow" to "he's not a worthy world champion" on this forum.

I understand what you are saying WB but what I consider to be a great driver is someone who is aggressive (for example Jenson's drive in Brazil 2009) when needed but calm and collected at other times, picking and choosing where to attack; for Lewis it's basically all or nothing which can be a plus on some circuits and a big negative on others.