FORUMula1.com

[Jabberwocky]

what is to stop a driver changing maps corner to corner?

[darwin dali]

what is to stop a driver changing maps corner to corner?

Dunno, Monte Carlo has about 70,000 of them

[stonemonkey]

what is to stop a driver changing maps corner to corner?

Dunno, Monte Carlo has about 70,000 of them

Schumacher's got his magic paddle for that.

[darwin dali]

what is to stop a driver changing maps corner to corner?

Dunno, Monte Carlo has about 70,000 of them

Schumacher's got his magic paddle for that.

This one?

[stonemonkey]

what is to stop a driver changing maps corner to corner?

Dunno, Monte Carlo has about 70,000 of them

Schumacher's got his magic paddle for that.

This one?

I dunno but that would make a perfect valentine gift.

EDIT: just looked it up and Schumachers magic paddle was supposedly something to do with closing the DRS, maybe he gives his rear wing a whack with that when it's jammed open.

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

I'm fairly positive that i read somewhere that the regulations state that the only function of the engine should be for providing torque or (something like that).

I just reviewed the SR and TR and can't find anything to that effect. The TR section regarding the engine does not define what its purpose is and the section on aero does not forbid using the engine as means to an aero end. I know the FIA have stated that that is the spirit of the intent for the engine but I do not think it is codified anywhere in the regs (which, of course, Adrian Newey would have read before embarking on this path).

[spankyham]

I'm fairly positive that i read somewhere that the regulations state that the only function of the engine should be for providing torque or (something like that).

I just reviewed the SR and TR and can't find anything to that effect. The TR section regarding the engine does not define what its purpose is and the section on aero does not forbid using the engine as means to an aero end. I know the FIA have stated that that is the spirit of the intent for the engine but I do not think it is codified anywhere in the regs (which, of course, Adrian Newey would have read before embarking on this path).

I don't think CW's view requires any "engine" rule or regulation. I'm pretty certain he would be acting under Article 3.15 of the Technical Regs. I've quoted the complete 3.15 at the bottom, but, this is the relevant part and its pretty clear:-
"any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance .... must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car"

Charlie is saying that once a team directs exhaust gases to the diffuser they are influencing its aerodynamic performance. The exhaust gases come from the engine which is not immobile.

It's very interesting that CW came out with two decisions for Barcelona, the Ferrari gurney flap, and this one. Yet he immediately acted against Ferrari but didn't act on this one.

Although I don't think the decision against Ferrari's clever interpretation made any difference whatsoever (Costa and Nando said it may have been worth a tenth at best) I do wish the FiA and race official could at least be consistent.

Technical Regs Article 3.15
3.15 Aerodynamic influence :
With the exception of the driver adjustable bodywork described in Article 3.18 (in addition to minimal parts
solely associated with its actuation) and the ducts described in Article 11.4, any specific part of the car
influencing its aerodynamic performance :
- must comply with the rules relating to bodywork ;
- must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having any
degree of freedom) ;
- must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car.
Any device or construction that is designed to bridge the gap between the sprung part of the car and the
ground is prohibited under all circumstances.
No part having an aerodynamic influence and no part of the bodywork, with the exception of the skid block
in 3.13 above, may under any circumstances be located below the reference plane.
With the exception of the parts necessary for the adjustment described in Article 3.18, any car system,
device or procedure which uses, or is suspected of using, driver movement as a means of altering the
aerodynamic characteristics of the car is prohibited.

[acosmichippo]

ok, it's not currently in regulations, but part of the proposed change.

Report on Autosport

...

To push this regulation change through, the FIA has deemed that throttle use will be allowed only for the purpose of increasing torque, not for 'aerodynamic performance'.

This effectively means that any team found to be using off-throttle blown diffusers could be in breach of the famous Article 3.15 of the technical regulations that outlaws moveable aerodynamic devices...

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

The influence of exhaust pressure has never and can never be neutral. Unless and until they find means to suspend Professor Newton's Third Law, exhaust gas pressure must violate the letter of either TR 3.15 or TR 5.2.1 or both. Past that, it's all a matter of degree.

Which takes me back to my original contention that the "ban" on exhaust overrun is unenforceable without defining
(1) the precise throttle position where "off-throttle" mapping in invoked
and either
(2) the amount of fuel that can be flowed
or
(3) the minimum timing advance when in an "off-throttle" condition
or some combination of the three.

Or they could simply altogether ban the EBD.

[CarBore]

Sure they can ban the diffuser but please wait until next season. All the top teams have a significant amount of their car designed around it and they were allowed it last year and no one said anything about it...

Just add a clause to the rules saying the exhuast must exit at x angle and there can be no part of the car other than the exhaust pipe within x mm of the exit point. Exhausts have to be within x geometry for their cross-section for the last x mm.

BUT BRING IT IN NEXT YEAR

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

As I alluded to earlier, any attempt to regulate the use of exhaust overrun will not be so straightforward as it might seem.

Newey on lack of off-throttle diffuser ban

Friday 27th May 2011

Adrian Newey has explained that the delay in banning off-throttle blown diffusers is possibly because it would hurt many of the teams' reliability.

Ahead of last weekend's Spanish GP there was talk of the FIA banning the off-throttle blown diffusers, a device aided by hot air from exhaust gases that helps increase downforce and maintains stabilisation of the car.

According to the FIA's Charlie Whiting, these devices infringe on Article 3.15 of the technical regulations.

However, motorsport's governing body held off on the ban, despite Hispania threatening to protest race results, with Newey explaining that it's because many teams will have unreliable engines on their hands unless they are given time to resolve the issue.

"I think the key to 3.15 is that it talks about 'driver over-run then the throttle should be closed' then in brackets 'idle speed' so it seems to be implying that the throttle should be closed at idle, which it clearly is.

"What the throttle does on over-run at other times is not clear in the regulations, not as expected.

"Certainly, in the case of Renault, then they open the throttle to full open on the over-run for exhaust valve cooling, and that's part of the reliability of the engine.

"It has been signed off through the years for dyno testing and for them to change that would be quite a big issue, because the engine's not proven that it would be reliable if the throttle remained closed in that situation.

"Obviously if other people are going further and perhaps firing the engine on the over-run then clearly exhaust valve cooling is not part of that and that would be something that presumably they would need to explain to keep Charlie happy."

[bud]

The FIA should just let it run its course this season then make the exhaust regs next year where the exhaust outlet has to be located in an specific area on each car. IE not allowed to be in the diffuser.

[acosmichippo]

but then what about Renault? Surely there are many places you could put exhaust where it would give you an aero benefit.

[bud]

but then what about Renault? Surely there are many places you could put exhaust where it would give you an aero benefit.

Im talking for next season! Obviously Renault will have to revert to a conventional exhaust. All teams have anl external exhaust from the rear of the car above a certain height so it cannot be used for diffuser gains.

[acosmichippo]

i know you meant next year. So you're saying all teams have exhaust in the exact same place? Sounds rather boring.