FORUMula1.com

[McLaren]

Can Schumi possibly be considered the greatest ever after his comeback? I'm doubting it now.

I wouldn't of put him in the top 3/4 before,let alone now.He never did have a world champion as a team mate.

[texasmr2]

Can Schumi possibly be considered the greatest ever after his comeback? I'm doubting it now.

Bud Bud Bud old mate the truth speaks volume's

Michael Shumacher:
Championship titles 7 (1994, 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004)
Consecutive titles 5 (2000–2004)
Race victories 91
Consecutive wins[3] 7 (2004, Europe–Hungary)
Wins with one team 72 (Ferrari)
Wins at same GP 8 (France)
Wins at different GPs 22
Second places 43
Podiums (Top 3) 154
Consecutive podium finishes 19 (US 2001–Japan 2002)
Points finishes 204
Consecutive points finishes 24 (Hungary 2001–Malaysia 2003)
Laps leading 4741 (22,155 km)[169]
Pole positions 68
Front row starts 115
Fastest laps 76
Doubles (Pole and win) 40
Perfect Score (Pole, fastest lap and win) 22
Championship points 1,447
Most wins in a season for a runner-up[4] 7 (2006)
Wins at Indianapolis (any racing class) 5
Wins at Monza (Formula One) 5
Wins in a season 13 (72%) (2004)
Fastest laps in a season[5] 10 (2004)
Podium finishes in a season 17 (100%) (2002)
Championship won with most races left 6 (2002)
Largest championship-winning margin 67 (2002)
Consecutive years with a win 15 (1992–2006)
Most races with 1 team 181 (Ferrari)

I wouldn't of put him in the top 3/4 before,let alone now.He never did have a world champion as a team mate.

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Michael - Should I Stay or Should I Go?

From the brilliant song by The Clash:
Should I stay or should I go now?
If I go there will be trouble
And if I stay it will be double
So you gotta let me know
Should I stay or should I go?



Between 1991 and 2006 Michael Schumacher's record in Formula 1 was stellar. Here are just a few of the records he holds:
Most Championships - 7
Most Race Victories - 91
Most Fastest Laps - 76
Most Pole Positions - 68
Most Points Scored - 1,447
Most Races Won in a Season - 13 (2004)

Since his return from retirement in 2010, his record has been somewhat less than stellar - not even a podium finish in 2010 and 2011 is looking like more of the same.

A-ha you say, it's the car that's the problem not Schumacher. Well true, the Mercedes is not a world beater so really the best comparison is with his team mate Nico Rosberg. In 2010, Schumacher only out qualified Rosberg on four occasions. His average grid position was 2.7 places higher than his team mate. Schumacher made Q3 in 12 of the 19 races last year (Rosberg 16).

Schumacher was 9th in the 2010 season standings with 72 points. Rosberg was 7th with 142 points. Schumacher is now 42 years of age. The next oldest is Barrichello at 38. Rosberg is 25.So is age catching up with Schumacher? Latest research suggests that reaction times don't really start to lengthen until 50 years of age but in F1 we are talking about incredibly small margins.

What else could it be? Is it that the other drivers are of a higher standard than when he was at his height? Is he coping well with all the extra technical demands placed upon him during the race?

Looking back on it, I think most people expected too much of him in his first season and 9th overall was not too bad but this is THE Michael Schumacher we are talking about, one of the all time F1 legends.

F1 has changed a LOT in the three years he was away. However for 2011, he has had a winter to adjust to the car and with KERS, DRS and the new Pirelli tyres, all the drivers and teams are still finding out how to get the best out of the technical changes so the playing field has to be more level than last year.

In 2011 so far, it's been 2010 revisited with Rosberg out qualifying Schumacher in all four races so far. Schumacher made Q3 for the first time in Turkey in 2011 whilst Rosberg has made it in all four races. Turkey was most illuminating. The free practice highlighting a false dawn with Schumacher third. However, when it came to the crunch of qualifying, Rosberg was a highly impressive third indicating Mercedes were finally getting their act together.

There was Schumacher? Languishing back in eighth place over one full second behind his team mate's time which is a huge difference. His interview post-qualification was interesting as well:

"It was just strange, it seemed that the more I pushed on my last lap, the more went wrong. I was at the limit of what I had in my hand but the car was just sliding around and therefore I never got into my rhythm."

This suggests a lack of grip and Ross Brawn picked up on this by later saying he thought it was due to dirty tyres having run wide at turn one.

The race itself was fascinating. Schumacher's coming together with Petrov on lap two damaging his front wing put paid to any chance of a reasonable finish. He even admitted it was mostly his fault and I am having trouble remembering an occasion when he last did that.

Would Petrov have been so bold if it had been Schumacher at his peak? Probably not, and this is just one example of him losing his aura. His quote post race says it all really:

"The big joy is not there right now........that's about it,"

What's now going on inside Schumacher's head? The public persona is no longer oozing 100% confidence. The competitive fires will still burn very bright but there are doubts creeping in. For someone as single minded as him to openly display this speaks volumes.

He is in the second year of a three year contract. It's still early days in 2011 but if he is unable to produce the performances that his reputation demands, you can't help but think that Ross Brawn will be having a few (subtle) words in his ear and that of his agent.

Should he do the right thing and retire gracefully at the end of this season? F1 is a young man's game and it's looking increasingly like Schumacher should pass on the mantle to the next generation.

So you gotta let me know
Should I stay or should I go?

[The Oz]

Can Schumi possibly be considered the greatest ever after his comeback? I'm doubting it now.

Well if you start to rule him out you'll be pretty much left with no-one.......

He is one of the greats, let's not forget that people! SEVEN world titles in any car in a fantastic achievement that probaley will never be achieved again. Whoever is the greatest is a debate that shall never be won unless Vettel can pull something out of his pocket (Wouldn't put it past him either just quitely.....)

[bud]

Can Schumi possibly be considered the greatest ever after his comeback? I'm doubting it now.

Well if you start to rule him out you'll be pretty much left with no-one.......

hardly, There are many others considered the greatest.

But this comeback has put doubt on that claim, surely the greatest driver of all time could come back after 3 years off and beat the likes of a very talented driver in Rosberg.

[Hammer278]

Maybe if he did this comeback sooner at a younger age. I see people everywhere saying age isn't a factor since people won WDCs before in their 40s...well that was then and this is now. The cars are different, the competition is different. Its precision racing now, not about who's the bravest.

I don't buy that at 42 Michael's precision is what it was before he retired. I do believe if we had the old Michael in Rosbergs seat next to this faded Schumi, he'd be doing what Rosberg is doing today. No more, no less.

[nish2280]

I dont think you can discredit 7 WDCs based off 2 bad seasons.

[FRAFPDD]

I say his legacy is ruined because he was known as a winner because he spent most of his time out front, never really had to battle too much in the midfield; now he is mired in the midfield he is struggling; being embarrassed by his team mate, which is my eyes means that he isn't as good a driver as his record suggests; he needed to have one of the best cars to win as much as he did!

There isnt a driver in the history of Formula One racing that has won in a car that is not one of the best, on the day, through the season, whatever. Nobody, has or will win in a crap car.

[vaptin]

I say his legacy is ruined because he was known as a winner because he spent most of his time out front, never really had to battle too much in the midfield; now he is mired in the midfield he is struggling; being embarrassed by his team mate, which is my eyes means that he isn't as good a driver as his record suggests; he needed to have one of the best cars to win as much as he did!

There isnt a driver in the history of Formula One racing that has won in a car that is not one of the best, on the day, through the season, whatever. Nobody, has or will win in a crap car.

How are you defining best?

It certainly has happened, what about when a driver crashes, or has a bad strategy, or a poor pit stop?

[FRAFPDD]

Schumachers legacy, quote "ruined" because he came back after a three year retirement, not hiatus, retirement and wasnt hitting podiums/wins.


I dont see Mansells reputation tarnished about his Mclaren comeback?

The only people, im my humble and slightly imflmmatory opinion, that believe his legacy is ruined, are the f1 "fans" that worship the " only as good as your last race" saying.


Hes clearly not as good as he was, so he shouldnt be, and should retire if you ask me, but getting all mouth after 5 straight years of silence aint' cool.

7 titles do not just dissapear into thin air.

[FRAFPDD]

I say his legacy is ruined because he was known as a winner because he spent most of his time out front, never really had to battle too much in the midfield; now he is mired in the midfield he is struggling; being embarrassed by his team mate, which is my eyes means that he isn't as good a driver as his record suggests; he needed to have one of the best cars to win as much as he did!

There isnt a driver in the history of Formula One racing that has won in a car that is not one of the best, on the day, through the season, whatever. Nobody, has or will win in a crap car.

How are you defining best?

It certainly has happened, what about when a driver crashes, or has a bad strategy, or a poor pit stop?

It cant be defined, theres a general criteria we all agree with.


When a driver crashes bad strategy etc, then the next best car takes the lead. You know what i mean anyway, " he needed to have one of the best cars to win as much as he did" well yes, nobody wins 7 titles in one of the s*itboxes do they?

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

One of the reasons we delight in the great champions who quit when they're at their peak is that we can forever fantasise about the what might have been. Schumey forces us to do the other, which is clinging desperately to memories of past greatness rather than what they have become as we watch them flounder pitiably.

Twenty years hence, I'm sure Michael's grandchildren will delight in the tales of Großvater's seven world championships but at the moment they do little to cushion the blows from all the reflexive face-palming watching him try to race causes me to do.

[What's Burning?]

So you gotta let me know
Should I stay or should I go?

I would have peed my pants laughing if you had Alonso come in and sing the chorus in Spanish.... me tienes que decir, si me frio o me soplo.

[racechick]

Can Schumi possibly be considered the greatest ever after his comeback? I'm doubting it now.

I wouldn't of put him in the top 3/4 before,let alone now.He never did have a world champion as a team mate.

I agree.

[zurich_allan]

Can Schumi possibly be considered the greatest ever after his comeback? I'm doubting it now.

I wouldn't of put him in the top 3/4 before,let alone now.He never did have a world champion as a team mate.

Yes he did - Nelson Piquet, 3 times WDC. Only for a few races, but he certainly did have a world champion as a team mate, and a notable one at that. And to be fair, their results were pretty similar in the half a dozen or so races they had together in the same cars.

In fact actually it's a pretty good comparison! Piquet was about 40 at that point, with Schumi the young charger who was rocking the boat. Now we have Nico doing something similar...

I do have to say, there's no way Schumacher's comeback tarnishes his legacy. After a full three years away from competitive racing, to come back in his 40's to a car that simply hasn't been on the pace yet he's been decent. Not great by any stretch, but also nowhere near as bad as some are making out. I genuinely do believe that he has probably been the most unlucky driver on the grid in the past two seasons. There have been plenty of times he's actually gotten himself into a competitive position only for an incident (sometimes his own doing, sometimes something completely out of his control) to cause him to drop way down the field.

VERY similar to Heidfeld in my opinion when he was at BMW, in that the problems were caused by not quite (for whatever reason) getting to grips with qualifying, and as a result qualifying behind at least 3 or 4 cars that he may be quicker than on race pace. The result is that crashes are more likely as he catches people cold or fights too early rather than waiting patiently for a clear chance. The thing is, as I seem to remember Senna saying to Jackie Stewart after winning the WDC in 1990 'If you no longer go for a gap when it is there, you are no longer a racing driver'. Schumacher will go for every gap he sees because he is a racing driver. It might be a flaw when you're in a car that isn't capable of racing at the sharp end, but in my opinion it's not a bad thing.