FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[Robert12010]

People seem to have trouble differentiating between "making the most of what your given" and "Vettel is as good as Senna"


To ask questions with no factual answer in any walk of life or subject, stats only mean so much, you have to take everything that can be stripped of information in determining the question in hand.


As such, i dont KNOW, not dont THINK or WANT, i dont KNOW, if Vettel is as good as Senna, because the criteria on which i (and most others should if they want a well rounded take on it) base the question on, hasnt really come to fruition, it should do, but isnt definite, by the time Vettels career is near an end, same with any other driver.

The car Vettels in is, and when hes won always has been, dominant. You can like that or lump that especially Vettel fans on here (vlad, nish ), Vettel hasnt won unless his car is the best on the day. Is this his fault, no, of course not, and he still has to drive it to the flag, which he does remarkably and better then anyone in F1 if you ask me. BUT THIS IS IRRELEVANT, because it isnt whats being adressed here, its whether Vettel is as good as Senna isnt it?

What is comparable is that Senna also won 2 championships in a car that was quite clearly the class of the field, in 88, and 91, the other year it was class of the field Prost beat him, and the year after that it was oer the course of the year, equal with Prosts Ferrari. So he has won when the car isnt dominant. I want to see Vettel do well (obviously not win, especially if Hamiltons the other WDC contender!) when hes in a car that has to fight for wins, or he at least has to fight for his pole before he f**** off and leaves the others in his dust!

[McLaren]

People seem to have trouble differentiating between "making the most of what your given" and "Vettel is as good as Senna"


To ask questions with no factual answer in any walk of life or subject, stats only mean so much, you have to take everything that can be stripped of information in determining the question in hand.


As such, i dont KNOW, not dont THINK or WANT, i dont KNOW, if Vettel is as good as Senna, because the criteria on which i (and most others should if they want a well rounded take on it) base the question on, hasnt really come to fruition, it should do, but isnt definite, by the time Vettels career is near an end, same with any other driver.

The car Vettels in is, and when hes won always has been, dominant. You can like that or lump that especially Vettel fans on here (vlad, nish ), Vettel hasnt won unless his car is the best on the day. Is this his fault, no, of course not, and he still has to drive it to the flag, which he does remarkably and better then anyone in F1 if you ask me. BUT THIS IS IRRELEVANT, because it isnt whats being adressed here, its whether Vettel is as good as Senna isnt it?

What is comparable is that Senna also won 2 championships in a car that was quite clearly the class of the field, in 88, and 91, the other year it was class of the field Prost beat him, and the year after that it was oer the course of the year, equal with Prosts Ferrari. So he has won when the car isnt dominant. I want to see Vettel do well (obviously not win, especially if Hamiltons the other WDC contender!) when hes in a car that has to fight for wins, or he at least has to fight for his pole before he f**** off and leaves the others in his dust!

In 1991 you say the McLaren was the best car ? .Disagree yes it was for the first four races, but after that it was the start of the williams domination.The williams was the best car and would prove to be for a few more years.

[McLaren]

As for the topic itself,I'm sure that guy is more qualified to judge than any of us.Senna was one of the true greats,but even he started somewhere.Vettel is proving to be very quick and is starting to look more mature with it.He could scale a height as high as Ayrton, time will tell,but its silly to just right the statement off.
It will be interesting to see what Seb can do when he isn't in the quickest car,when that day arrives.It's then I think you really tell.Like 1993 for example when Ayrton managed to take the title to the pinaltimate race in a car that was 1-1.5 seconds a lap slower than the williams,driven by a four times (3 at the time) world champion.His best season in my book.

[The Ram]

Vettel needs a team mate who is regarded at the best. Senna Had Alain a WDC who was at the top of his game. All we know is that Vettel is slightly faster than Bourdais and Webber.

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

In 2007, Vettel scored more WDC points than Button, who was in his second season with BAR-Honda. This despite the fact that Vettel competed in only eight races and Button started all 17 (and 8 < 17).

In 2008, his first full season, still driving for Toro Rosso, Vettel came 8th in WDC. His 2008 result remains the best WDC result ever for a Toro Rosso driver. He came ahead of at least one driver for every team in WDC excepting Ferrari and BMW. He also came ahead of both Toyota drivers and both Red Bull drivers (in an Adrian Newey chassis), one of whom was his current teammate, Mark Webber.

In 2009, his first season in with RBR, with a total one and a half seasons prior F1 experience, Vettel came second in WDC. The highest previous WDC result for any RBR driver was 9th.

In his first two full seasons at RBR, Webber scored one podium finish. One (1). In his third season at RBR, Vettel joined the team and Webber suddenly managed eight podiums. He went from a single podium in 35 races to eight in the following 17. Are we to attribute Webber's new-found success to his decision to switch from Sultana Bran to Weetabix, or could it be that Adrian Newey finally had a proper racing driver to test and develop his chassis for him?

Webber had more starts before coming first than any other driver in F1 history. Button is fourth on the same list.

Vettel, OTOH, is the youngest driver in F1 history to take pole, to lead a lap, to score points, to finish on the podium and to win a race, all while driving for Torro Rosso!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How in the name of Juan Manuel Fangio do you credit the car for that success?

Mediocre teams always continue to languish under the burden of mediocre drivers. Great drivers elevate the station of mediocre teams. Vettel has elevated the station of every team he has driven for. Damned few of the current crop of drivers can make that same claim (with a straight face).

Is Vettel Senna's equal? Dunno. But I do know you have to ignore a long list of indisputable facts to conclude positively he will not be in the fullness of time. And if you think it's all in the car, you're just not watching.

[bud]

In his first two full seasons at RBR, Webber scored one podium finish. One (1). In his third season at RBR, Vettel joined the team and Webber suddenly managed eight podiums. He went from a single podium in 35 races to eight in the following 17. Are we to attribute Webber's new-found success to his decision to switch from Sultana Bran to Weetabix, or could it be that Adrian Newey finally had a proper racing driver to test and develop his chassis for him?

I think you're reaching there. It's all down to the dramatic reg changes for RB's sudden form change.

whats with calling him Vettel? You trying to write it how its pronounced

[What's Burning?]

In 2007, Vettel scored more WDC points than Button, who was in his second season with BAR-Honda. This despite the fact that Vettel competed in only eight races and Button started all 17 (and 8 < 17).

In 2008, his first full season, still driving for Toro Rosso, Vettel came 8th in WDC. His 2008 result remains the best WDC result ever for a Toro Rosso driver. He came ahead of at least one driver for every team in WDC excepting Ferrari and BMW. He also came ahead of both Toyota drivers and both Red Bull drivers (in an Adrian Newey chassis), one of whom was his current teammate, Mark Webber.

In 2009, his first season in with RBR, with a total one and a half seasons prior F1 experience, Vettel came second in WDC. The highest previous WDC result for any RBR driver was 9th.

In his first two full seasons at RBR, Webber scored one podium finish. One (1). In his third season at RBR, Vettel joined the team and Webber suddenly managed eight podiums. He went from a single podium in 35 races to eight in the following 17. Are we to attribute Webber's new-found success to his decision to switch from Sultana Bran to Weetabix, or could it be that Adrian Newey finally had a proper racing driver to test and develop his chassis for him?

Webber had more starts before coming first than any other driver in F1 history. Button is fourth on the same list.

Vettel, OTOH, is the youngest driver in F1 history to take pole, to lead a lap, to score points, to finish on the podium and to win a race, all while driving for Torro Rosso!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How in the name of Juan Manuel Fangio do you credit the car for that success?

Mediocre teams always continue to languish under the burden of mediocre drivers. Great drivers elevate the station of mediocre teams. Vettel has elevated the station of every team he has driven for. Damned few of the current crop of drivers can make that same claim (with a straight face).

Is Vettel Senna's equal? Dunno. But I do know you have to ignore a long list of indisputable facts to conclude positively he will not be in the fullness of time. And if you think it's all in the car, you're just not watching.

He didn't win a WDC for Torro Rosso, and in 2009 RBR had the second best car on the grid, and the brawn clearly struggled in low temperature conditions, and his 2010 performance? Well he had the WDC lead at only one point in the calendar. When it counted, but he did not lead during the year... so what's your interpretation of his greatness in explaining these points?

Vettel's talent lies in being able to put together a perfect qualifying lap, a skill that in the sport of recent years has been of utmost importance. He's a talented driver, certainly top handful on the grid without question. Can the comparisons and the expectations of some be premature? Yes I believe so. He may be fully baked as a driver but he's not fully baked as a racer, time will tell. BTW, you keep missing the V and pressing the F on your keyboard.

[F1er]

If you rate Vettel as Senna then Webber is Prost?

[acosmichippo]

In 2007, Vettel scored more WDC points than Button, who was in his second season with BAR-Honda. This despite the fact that Vettel competed in only eight races and Button started all 17 (and 8 < 17).

In 2008, his first full season, still driving for Toro Rosso, Vettel came 8th in WDC. His 2008 result remains the best WDC result ever for a Toro Rosso driver. He came ahead of at least one driver for every team in WDC excepting Ferrari and BMW. He also came ahead of both Toyota drivers and both Red Bull drivers (in an Adrian Newey chassis), one of whom was his current teammate, Mark Webber.

In 2009, his first season in with RBR, with a total one and a half seasons prior F1 experience, Vettel came second in WDC. The highest previous WDC result for any RBR driver was 9th.

In his first two full seasons at RBR, Webber scored one podium finish. One (1). In his third season at RBR, Vettel joined the team and Webber suddenly managed eight podiums. He went from a single podium in 35 races to eight in the following 17. Are we to attribute Webber's new-found success to his decision to switch from Sultana Bran to Weetabix, or could it be that Adrian Newey finally had a proper racing driver to test and develop his chassis for him?

Webber had more starts before coming first than any other driver in F1 history. Button is fourth on the same list.

Vettel, OTOH, is the youngest driver in F1 history to take pole, to lead a lap, to score points, to finish on the podium and to win a race, all while driving for Torro Rosso!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How in the name of Juan Manuel Fangio do you credit the car for that success?

Mediocre teams always continue to languish under the burden of mediocre drivers. Great drivers elevate the station of mediocre teams. Vettel has elevated the station of every team he has driven for. Damned few of the current crop of drivers can make that same claim (with a straight face).

Is Vettel Senna's equal? Dunno. But I do know you have to ignore a long list of indisputable facts to conclude positively he will not be in the fullness of time. And if you think it's all in the car, you're just not watching.

He didn't win a WDC for Torro Rosso, and in 2009 RBR had the second best car on the grid, and the brawn clearly struggled in low temperature conditions, and his 2010 performance? Well he had the WDC lead at only one point in the calendar. When it counted, but he did not lead during the year... so what's your interpretation of his greatness in explaining these points?

Vettel's talent lies in being able to put together a perfect qualifying lap, a skill that in the sport of recent years has been of utmost importance. He's a talented driver, certainly top handful on the grid without question. Can the comparisons and the expectations of some be premature? Yes I believe so. He may be fully baked as a driver but he's not fully baked as a racer, time will tell. BTW, you keep missing the V and pressing the F on your keyboard.

You could also say that Senna didn't win a WDC without a McLaren. And while his 2010 win wasn't dominant, he did win at a much younger age than Senna.

[What's Burning?]

Vettel fans, don't fret it's just the way it is with success. Even if Vettel in the next couple of years manages to outscore two different WDC winning teammates... he'll still have detractors posting crap on forums.

[LewEngBridewell]

It's impossible to know how Vettel's talent compares to Senna's as they come from totally different eras.

What is certain however, is that Vettel;

* is highly talented
* is a worthy world champion
* seems like a very nice chap

In Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso, we have three amazing racers at the top of their game.

[FRAFPDD]

Vettel fans, don't fret it's just the way it is with success. Even if Vettel in the next couple of years manages to outscore two different WDC winning teammates... he'll still have detractors posting crap on forums.

Mr Burning, can i ask that you name those that are posting crap? I think everything ive said of Vettel in here is subtley complimentary.

[vlad]

It's impossible to know how Vettel's talent compares to Senna's as they come from totally different eras.

What is certain however, is that Vettel;

* is highly talented
* is a worthy world champion
* seems like a very nice chap

In Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso, we have three amazing racers at the top of their game.

It's bin a long time since I've seen a good post like this!

[Gaz]

It's impossible to know how Vettel's talent compares to Senna's as they come from totally different eras.

What is certain however, is that Vettel;

* is highly talented
* is a worthy world champion
* seems like a very nice chap

In Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso, we have three amazing racers at the top of their game.

I agree, but Alonso seams to have slipped and Button is defintily up there.

But in regards to the original topic, Senna is on a different level than Vettle on so many levels.

[What's Burning?]

Vettel fans, don't fret it's just the way it is with success. Even if Vettel in the next couple of years manages to outscore two different WDC winning teammates... he'll still have detractors posting crap on forums.

Mr Burning, can i ask that you name those that are posting crap? I think everything ive said of Vettel in here is subtley complimentary.

The answer to what's burning will be revealed some day.

In the mean time The post is intended as a general good natures poke, as I don't think ANYONE here has directly said that Vettel is crap or isn't worthy of his WDC title or that he's not talented. The OP is very specific but it is simply an opinion, perhaps a premature opinion, but simply an opinion. You shouldn't assume everything posted here relates directly to you... I said detractorSSS and forumSSS.

In any case, I think my point is very valid... some people are simply never going to be pleased, or have a bias for whatever reason, and there's a handful of people here that get their feathers all ruffled when something complimentary of Hamilton is posted, I'm simply stating to Vettel fans to get used to it, success is a petri dish for criticism.