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[What's Burning?]

Yeah bit of respect my way would be nicer WB instead of just saying what's your point...

You can choose to ignore him and not get in the weeds.

[FRAFPDD]

Senna was hardly a pole to flag driver, research more about something before your time to make such statements.

And the guys making comparisons because he has worked with all the above, so it's fair for him to do so!

Almost all of Sennas wins came from pole to flag? What is your actual point here bud? It is a fact.

What's my point? Gee you arrogant little.... What's your point? Senna could only win from pole? You're wrong if you think that! Senna had more career poles than race wins. Back then they had a Q engine and a race one, getting pole was no guarantee of a race win unlike in the previous decade just gone!

And if you honestly think Senna only won from pole then my first post RESEARCH! He had a lot of great wins from in the field! You seem to post alot of s*** before you actually know what you're talking about!

Why are you getting angry? Who comes on an F1 forum with fellow fans and gets angry, please calm down and express your distaste at my entirely valid opinion through the medium of logic and reasoning bud, im fed up of getting dragged to some peoples levels so ive already added some members to the ignore list...

Id like you to read my last reply to Myownalias cause it can easily be transferred as an answer to your question.

[myownalias]

Bottom line here is that comparing F1 today to F1 of the late 80s/early 90s is like comparing chalk and cheese; radically different sporting environment, we sure as hell didn't need DRS or KERS; a big turbo that you could use strategically in the race at the expense of using more fuel was the KERS of the day, that's about the only comparison with today is the refuelling ban!

Bud I understand your passion but tone it down, allow FRAFPDD to have his opinion, stats don't tell the whole story, but unless you experienced Senna first hand, stats is all a person can go on!

[acosmichippo]

Most of Senna's wins in 92-93 came from behind the pole - from behind massively superior cars.

[What's Burning?]

Most of Senna's wins in 92-93 came from behind the pole - from behind massively superior cars.

Interestingly, the more senna like performance in China came from Webber, not Vettel. But given the lack of available comparison the only thing we have is the opinion of their peers, other drivers. This opinion doesn't only come from the current gig but from years of knowing a driver or racing with them in Karts and other leagues and noticing the nuances in their performance we're just not privy to as outsiders.

[FRAFPDD]

Most of Senna's wins in 92-93 came from behind the pole - from behind massively superior cars.

Massively superior enough that Senna was still able to win right?

Or he was just that good? Well then Berger, Schumacher were also that good, cause they too managed wins in 92/93, "from behind massively superior cars"

[FRAFPDD]

Bottom line here is that comparing F1 today to F1 of the late 80s/early 90s is like comparing chalk and cheese; radically different sporting environment, we sure as hell didn't need DRS or KERS; a big turbo that you could use strategically in the race at the expense of using more fuel was the KERS of the day, that's about the only comparison with today is the refuelling ban!

Bud I understand your passion but tone it down, allow FRAFPDD to have his opinion, stats don't tell the whole story, but unless you experienced Senna first hand, stats is all a person can go on!

Or of course you go and watch the races for yourself on the internet Myownalias, before you play the glaringly patronising "stats is all a person can go on" card.

[myownalias]

The thing about Senna for me; it was his no compromise racing style; he would send a move up the inside, basically "either you move aside or we are going to have a crash", winning was everything for him, he never really played it safe for the points, you have to admire that attitude, if we had more, Hamilton's, Webber's and Kobayashi's, F1 would be better for it!

[darwin dali]

I've liked SV, from the start. He was a breath of fresh air. Let's see how he develops, matures and improves. We could be witnessing somebody and something special - let's be open-minded.

[acosmichippo]

Most of Senna's wins in 92-93 came from behind the pole - from behind massively superior cars.

Massively superior enough that Senna was still able to win right?

Or he was just that good? Well then Berger, Schumacher were also that good, cause they too managed wins in 92/93, "from behind massively superior cars"

Now you're moving the goal posts. Either he was able to win without pole or he wasn't. Other drivers' ability to do so has nothing to do with it.

Either way, it doesn't really relate to the topic at hand. I don't think the point of the OP was to say Vettel and Senna are the exact same kind of driver, but that they are both equally naturally talented.

[myownalias]

Bottom line here is that comparing F1 today to F1 of the late 80s/early 90s is like comparing chalk and cheese; radically different sporting environment, we sure as hell didn't need DRS or KERS; a big turbo that you could use strategically in the race at the expense of using more fuel was the KERS of the day, that's about the only comparison with today is the refuelling ban!

Bud I understand your passion but tone it down, allow FRAFPDD to have his opinion, stats don't tell the whole story, but unless you experienced Senna first hand, stats is all a person can go on!

Or of course you go and watch the races for yourself on the internet Myownalias, before you play the glaringly patronising "stats is all a person can go on" card.

No, you can not; what is available on Youtube is limited compared to watching whole races in real time when it took place, I only caught the tail end of Senna's career before his untimely death, you were the one using the stats coming to the conclusion that it was always poles to win races for Senna. Dude you need to chill out; you're now the one getting agitated!

[What's Burning?]

I've liked SV, from the start. He was a breath of fresh air. Let's see how he develops, matures and improves. We could be witnessing somebody and something special - let's be open-minded.

I think the OP talks about natural talent... and the drivers he was specifically "blessed" for lack of a better word to work with. SV is a talented individual, phenomenal at perfection when it counts but in my opinion he does not currently have the tenacity of a racer. That tenacity is a character trait, not a skill learned on the track.

It's not a coincidence that MOA mentioned the three drivers which I find the most exciting to watch. It doesn't mean they're the best driver, but just people that find a way to get past you regardless of tires, cars, or place on the track.

[FRAFPDD]

I've liked SV, from the start. He was a breath of fresh air. Let's see how he develops, matures and improves. We could be witnessing somebody and something special - let's be open-minded.

I like him, but i dont think comparing him to Senna is premature cause Senna is an untouchable saint, i think its premature because i havent seen anything apart from his pole positions and therefore pole to flags, that resembles Senna.

I want to see Vettel in the benchmarker cars, a Mclaren or a Ferrari, where we know his teammate wont be average. Then ill make my mind up on him. Its not really fair to call him overrated or underrated when hes only ever done well when the car is the best one there, The toro rosso of Monza was the best car, clearly, and the red bull in 2010/11 is alos the best car, hands down. Comparisons like this are ridiculous enough coming from a forum let alone this blokes mouth.

[FRAFPDD]

Bottom line here is that comparing F1 today to F1 of the late 80s/early 90s is like comparing chalk and cheese; radically different sporting environment, we sure as hell didn't need DRS or KERS; a big turbo that you could use strategically in the race at the expense of using more fuel was the KERS of the day, that's about the only comparison with today is the refuelling ban!

Bud I understand your passion but tone it down, allow FRAFPDD to have his opinion, stats don't tell the whole story, but unless you experienced Senna first hand, stats is all a person can go on!

Or of course you go and watch the races for yourself on the internet Myownalias, before you play the glaringly patronising "stats is all a person can go on" card.

No, you can not; what is available on Youtube is limited compared to watching whole races in real time when it took place, I only caught the tail end of Senna's career before his untimely death, you were the one using the stats coming to the conclusion that it was always poles to win races for Senna. Dude you need to chill out; you're now the one getting agitated!

I think its slightly wrong to assume im only getting my fix from youtube, there are countless sites, most a bit dodgy that have races from the 80's, if im bored i go watch them, ive seen quite a lot you know.

Im not getting agitated either lets not do that game.

[FRAFPDD]

Most of Senna's wins in 92-93 came from behind the pole - from behind massively superior cars.

Massively superior enough that Senna was still able to win right?

Or he was just that good? Well then Berger, Schumacher were also that good, cause they too managed wins in 92/93, "from behind massively superior cars"

Now you're moving the goal posts. Either he was able to win without pole or he wasn't. Other drivers' ability to do so has nothing to do with it.

Either way, it doesn't really relate to the topic at hand. I don't think the point of the OP was to say Vettel and Senna are the exact same kind of driver, but that they are both equally naturally talented.

But his stats say: 41 wins, 65 poles.

I just cant see how on stats alone, he was either great at winning from the back AND (not or, not also, AND) good at winning from pole?

Because if that were the case, hed have more wins then poles. But he has significantly less amount of wins, then poles?