FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[What's Burning?]

See what happens when the reference point is inclined. the lower sketch is simply tilting the reference plane 10º. They can control the initial angle with different suspension set up, and they can even have varying angles under different load, depending on the stiffness of the front/rear suspension. Basically, they can put that wing wherever they want without breaking the rules he he

So the problem with that description is that you can't explain the image here... the suspension is clearly not moving while the wing is clearly moving, based on the speed of the air flow to the wing.

The second image shows the ray tracing, and by your tilting of the plane explanation, you'd clearly see the same degree of angle in the car, but you don't.

At some point the explanations given have to match the visible evidence or it's it's a theory full of holes.

[f1ea]

So the problem with that description is that you can't explain the image here... the suspension is clearly not moving while the wing is clearly moving, based on the speed of the air flow to the wing.

but what is the scale on that drawing and how much deflection is there really? how can you tell the suspension is not moving from a pic? most of the talk arises when people see the wing very close to the tarmac, but they never mention where the suspension is at these times. For example, if you look at the noses in the tracing images, you can see the front wing is not drastically closer to hitting the ground...

The deflection on the ray tracing images could very well be 30mm under 150kg of loading... the pics are only telling half the story, just like Horner saying his car is simply angled is also half the story.

[darwin dali]

I still think the pull rod suspension has something to do with it. See, e.g., Scarbsf1.
And if that's true, the competition will have a heck of a time to copy that while I'm sure RB will be able to master their KERS within a few GPs, and thus, will gain more speed again.

[texasmr2]

I still think the pull rod suspension has something to do with it. See, e.g., Scarbsf1.
And if that's true, the competition will have a heck of a time to copy that while I'm sure RB will be able to master their KERS within a few GPs, and thus, will gain more speed again.

If SV can pull out an 8sec gap without using KERS the gap will get even bigger once they sortout their issue's or atleast until another team find's their mojo.

[bud]

I thought he did have KERS at the start? Only later did they turn it off to be safe because of Marks problems.

I'm with WB, if this was just merely ride height and suspension related then whats happening in that photo wouldn't be. It's clear the wing and nose is moving outside the chassis, something that the wing deflection test won't measure is the nose itself! They measure only the wings.

[texasmr2]

I thought he did have KERS at the start? Only later did they turn it off to be safe because of Marks problems..

Actually I'm not sure if SV used his for the start or during the race. I was just thinking that if it was not used at the first race and then after the radio conversations last weekend I just assumed it was an ongoing issue with their system, not like they really need it anyway right !

[bud]

Well they didn't use it at Australia but he did use it in Sepang at the start or he would have gotten swamped like Webber did. But yeah seems the time they make in the corners with their downforce outweighs any KERS benefit.

[texasmr2]

But yeah seems the time they make in the corners with their downforce outweighs any KERS benefit.

Spot on and it reminds me of BGP's car when JB won the WDC. I started to analize their lap by lap performance in comparison to the others and the difference was just amazing.

[acosmichippo]

After watching an onboard lap of Jenson Button during practice 2, it looks like they have a more bendy front wing.

[Jensonb]

After watching an onboard lap of Jenson Button during practice 2, it looks like they have a more bendy front wing.

Mm, I spotted that too. Ferrari likewise seem to be experimenting with a wing which is a bit more lively under braking.

[stonemonkey]

I still think the pull rod suspension has something to do with it. See, e.g., Scarbsf1.
And if that's true, the competition will have a heck of a time to copy that while I'm sure RB will be able to master their KERS within a few GPs, and thus, will gain more speed again.

From horners explanation I think that's the case.
The pull rod allows the suspension components to be positioned lower which lowers the CoG. That lets them lift the rear end which tilts the floor and the reference plane forward so they slope down towards the front. The whole car has been designed around that from the start so anyone else trying to copy by raising the rear would not only be raising their (already high) CoG even higher but also affecting their aero which has been designed over a more level reference plane.

That's my take on it anyway.

[spankyham]

I still think the pull rod suspension has something to do with it. See, e.g., Scarbsf1.
And if that's true, the competition will have a heck of a time to copy that while I'm sure RB will be able to master their KERS within a few GPs, and thus, will gain more speed again.

From horners explanation I think that's the case.
The pull rod allows the suspension components to be positioned lower which lowers the CoG. That lets them lift the rear end which tilts the floor and the reference plane forward so they slope down towards the front. The whole car has been designed around that from the start so anyone else trying to copy by raising the rear would not only be raising their (already high) CoG even higher but also affecting their aero which has been designed over a more level reference plane.

That's my take on it anyway.

Great practice, love the track, hate the smog!

The pull rod has nothing to do with anyone's ability to make a flexing front section. Ferrari have push rod and they ended the 2010 with a front wing nearly as flexible as the RB6. Costa has already said they didn't make a flexi front because the spirit of the new laws were they were out, but, given they are being used by the RB7, Ferrari have a slight version here and will intro their fully flexing front section in Turkey.

What the pull rod definitely gives is a better/lower COG. The cost of pull rod is its inflexibility in terms of being able to make changes. Because of the way it is shaped, you really can't move or add stuff because the suspension is in the way.

[stonemonkey]

I still think the pull rod suspension has something to do with it. See, e.g., Scarbsf1.
And if that's true, the competition will have a heck of a time to copy that while I'm sure RB will be able to master their KERS within a few GPs, and thus, will gain more speed again.

From horners explanation I think that's the case.
The pull rod allows the suspension components to be positioned lower which lowers the CoG. That lets them lift the rear end which tilts the floor and the reference plane forward so they slope down towards the front. The whole car has been designed around that from the start so anyone else trying to copy by raising the rear would not only be raising their (already high) CoG even higher but also affecting their aero which has been designed over a more level reference plane.

That's my take on it anyway.

Great practice, love the track, hate the smog!

The pull rod has nothing to do with anyone's ability to make a flexing front section. Ferrari have push rod and they ended the 2010 with a front wing nearly as flexible as the RB6. Costa has already said they didn't make a flexi front because the spirit of the new laws were they were out, but, given they are being used by the RB7, Ferrari have a slight version here and will intro their fully flexing front section in Turkey.

What the pull rod definitely gives is a better/lower COG. The cost of pull rod is its inflexibility in terms of being able to make changes. Because of the way it is shaped, you really can't move or add stuff because the suspension is in the way.

I didn't say it was anything to do with the flexing. I'm suggesting the sloping reference plane may be the reason red bull can get their wing so close to the ground while remaining legal.

[spankyham]

I still think the pull rod suspension has something to do with it. See, e.g., Scarbsf1.
And if that's true, the competition will have a heck of a time to copy that while I'm sure RB will be able to master their KERS within a few GPs, and thus, will gain more speed again.

From horners explanation I think that's the case.
The pull rod allows the suspension components to be positioned lower which lowers the CoG. That lets them lift the rear end which tilts the floor and the reference plane forward so they slope down towards the front. The whole car has been designed around that from the start so anyone else trying to copy by raising the rear would not only be raising their (already high) CoG even higher but also affecting their aero which has been designed over a more level reference plane.

That's my take on it anyway.

Great practice, love the track, hate the smog!

The pull rod has nothing to do with anyone's ability to make a flexing front section. Ferrari have push rod and they ended the 2010 with a front wing nearly as flexible as the RB6. Costa has already said they didn't make a flexi front because the spirit of the new laws were they were out, but, given they are being used by the RB7, Ferrari have a slight version here and will intro their fully flexing front section in Turkey.

What the pull rod definitely gives is a better/lower COG. The cost of pull rod is its inflexibility in terms of being able to make changes. Because of the way it is shaped, you really can't move or add stuff because the suspension is in the way.

I didn't say it was anything to do with the flexing. I'm suggesting the sloping reference plane may be the reason red bull can get their wing so close to the ground while remaining legal.

Hey SM, it was actually DD who was suggesting the pull rod was the reason.

Personally, I don't think there is any one thing that is getting the front wing so close to the ground, I think its a combination of a few things

[stonemonkey]

Eh! I was following on from DD with my thoughts and you quoted my post so calm down SH.