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[FRAFPDD]

Id bet my bottom dollar merc,renault and mclaren despite not actually having said it are all working on it now too.


Could we soon be seeing the end of red bull dominance?

Maybe, but if given how hamilton drove the nuts off that mclaren for qually and vettel chump it, shows that if all the cars are equal, it could come down to pole pos, and vettel is currently the dream kid at that.

I disagree, if all cars are equal. Alonso and Hamilton would fill out the front row. My basis for this? Ive never, and neither has anyone, seen Vettel take on whilst in F1 a car of a team that isnt his own, on equal pace, and win with it. We just havent seen it, Hamilton beat Massa,kimi and alonso to poles in 2007 when all four had similiar paces cars, Vettels had Webber.............


I actually like Vettel as a personality more then my own driver Hamilton, but i really dont think hes all that. Im sorry if people dont agree, hes a world champion, and nobody who wins it doesnt deserve it. He did deserve it. I just cannot for the life of me see why youd think hes the current pole king of F1, he hasnt had a benchmark to try it yet, and Webber beat him to what? 6 poles of possible 18 last year?

I like to determine my opinion on more then raw facts and statistics. I just havent seen Vettel challenged fairly yet, and when i have it was Webber who beat him regularly!

[stonemonkey]

Id bet my bottom dollar merc,renault and mclaren despite not actually having said it are all working on it now too.


Could we soon be seeing the end of red bull dominance?

If it is anything to do with the rake angle allowing the front wing to be so close to the ground legally then I'm not so sure anyone else could copy it this year.

[killem2]

So you are saying it's the car and not vettel getting these poles? I don't see glock doing it, and I don't see Kobayashi doing it, or even petrov if he was behind the RBR, and I think these are all extremely better drivers than vettel when it comes to driving through other cars. to me anyway, but I don't think they could land those poles.

[FRAFPDD]

So you are saying it's the car and not vettel getting these poles? I don't see glock doing it, and I don't see Kobayashi doing it, or even petrov if he was behind the RBR, and I think these are all extremely better drivers than vettel when it comes to driving through other cars. to me anyway, but I don't think they could land those poles.

Your post was rendered a bit pointless cause you misunderstood me from the first line ,

No, Vettel has to get that car around track, nobody else can do it for him.

And actually i can see Glock, Petrov eand even moreso Kobayashi, getting poles if they had that car under their arse. They all take the racing line, theres no, oh would he get that car to pole malarkey, Kovaleinen got a pole when his car provided, Trulli got a pole when his car provided. They all perform to what the car lets them perform.

Vettel may well be a pole driver, Hamiltons a racecraft king, Alonsos a tactical maestro, Vettel might just be a pole prince !

BUT. we havent seen him go against anyone, or anything, that can challenege him even if he was just a toe above average as a driver. The car is THAT good.


And nobody here apart from geetface, will tell you that Webber is an absolute god at hot laps, cause hes not, and he beat Vettel to 6 in one season. Thats the evidence for my reasoning.

[FRAFPDD]

Id bet my bottom dollar merc,renault and mclaren despite not actually having said it are all working on it now too.


Could we soon be seeing the end of red bull dominance?

If it is anything to do with the rake angle allowing the front wing to be so close to the ground legally then I'm not so sure anyone else could copy it this year.

Oh yeah thats true, well theyre close enough already, Mclaren at least, and they still got an acre of development space.

[killem2]

So you are saying it's the car and not vettel getting these poles? I don't see glock doing it, and I don't see Kobayashi doing it, or even petrov if he was behind the RBR, and I think these are all extremely better drivers than vettel when it comes to driving through other cars. to me anyway, but I don't think they could land those poles.

Your post was rendered a bit pointless cause you misunderstood me from the first line ,

No, Vettel has to get that car around track, nobody else can do it for him.

And actually i can see Glock, Petrov eand even moreso Kobayashi, getting poles if they had that car under their arse. They all take the racing line, theres no, oh would he get that car to pole malarkey, Kovaleinen got a pole when his car provided, Trulli got a pole when his car provided. They all perform to what the car lets them perform.

Vettel may well be a pole driver, Hamiltons a racecraft king, Alonsos a tactical maestro, Vettel might just be a pole prince !

BUT. we havent seen him go against anyone, or anything, that can challenege him even if he was just a toe above average as a driver. The car is THAT good.


And nobody here apart from geetface, will tell you that Webber is an absolute god at hot laps, cause hes not, and he beat Vettel to 6 in one season. Thats the evidence for my reasoning.

So lets say he goes on and gets pole for the rest of the season, even though I know he won't get it in monaco. You can't blitz monaco. , and then goes into 2012 and gets to 7 races in and keeps doing pole after pole, we just have to throw our arms up and say sorry he sucks.

You defend Hamilton by saying that he raced cars on par with his. I didn't seem to think in 2010 the ferrari and the mcclarens were all that slower than RBR reliability sucked at times but when all was well it was good racing.

[FRAFPDD]

So you are saying it's the car and not vettel getting these poles? I don't see glock doing it, and I don't see Kobayashi doing it, or even petrov if he was behind the RBR, and I think these are all extremely better drivers than vettel when it comes to driving through other cars. to me anyway, but I don't think they could land those poles.

Your post was rendered a bit pointless cause you misunderstood me from the first line ,

No, Vettel has to get that car around track, nobody else can do it for him.

And actually i can see Glock, Petrov eand even moreso Kobayashi, getting poles if they had that car under their arse. They all take the racing line, theres no, oh would he get that car to pole malarkey, Kovaleinen got a pole when his car provided, Trulli got a pole when his car provided. They all perform to what the car lets them perform.

Vettel may well be a pole driver, Hamiltons a racecraft king, Alonsos a tactical maestro, Vettel might just be a pole prince !

BUT. we havent seen him go against anyone, or anything, that can challenege him even if he was just a toe above average as a driver. The car is THAT good.


And nobody here apart from geetface, will tell you that Webber is an absolute god at hot laps, cause hes not, and he beat Vettel to 6 in one season. Thats the evidence for my reasoning.

So lets say he goes on and gets pole for the rest of the season, even though I know he won't get it in monaco. You can't blitz monaco. , and then goes into 2012 and gets to 7 races in and keeps doing pole after pole, we just have to throw our arms up and say sorry he sucks.

You defend Hamilton by saying that he raced cars on par with his. I didn't seem to think in 2010 the ferrari and the mcclarens were all that slower than RBR reliability sucked at times but when all was well it was good racing.

The bottom line is its all relative isnt it? What are we comparing? Vettels speed to Hamiltons/Alonsos/Webbers/Kubicas.

He hasnt done anything of which we can directly compare his speed to the other top drivers? Nothing at all? Because the only way you really can, is when two teams share around half the poles all year, if your going to tell me Vettel has dragged a midfield Red Bull to a second gap poles through 2010 and 11 then.......well.......

If you dont think Vettel sucks, then your on my side. But if he keeps getting poles all this year and into 2012, god for-petes sake-bid!, then its clearly obvious (if you really think it isnt already) that the car is doing most of the work.

We have to wait till Vettels at Mercedes, Mclaren, Ferrari with a more then likely top drawer teammate to see what hes about. Dont we?

[killem2]

Well now, did prost and nigel deserve their 92/93 champion ships with a car LOADED to the brim with driver aids?

We know they are great drivers, the car was destroying everyone back then. Even the great Senna, who got neutered by the electronic gods.

My questioning of this is, how far down do you think he'd be if he wasn't in a red bull? Webber was able to keep the pace quite well in 2010 and as you said beat Vettel to those poles.

What's wrong with having a dominate car? It doesn't do all the work, there has to be a skilled driver to harness it.

[FRAFPDD]

Well now, did prost and nigel deserve their 92/93 champion ships with a car LOADED to the brim with driver aids?

We know they are great drivers, the car was destroying everyone back then. Even the great Senna, who got neutered by the electronic gods.

My questioning of this is, how far down do you think he'd be if he wasn't in a red bull? Webber was able to keep the pace quite well in 2010 and as you said beat Vettel to those poles.

What's wrong with having a dominate car? It doesn't do all the work, there has to be a skilled driver to harness it.

We're going off topic:

"Maybe, but if given how hamilton drove the nuts off that mclaren for qually and vettel chump it, shows that if all the cars are equal, it could come down to pole pos, and vettel is currently the dream kid at that."

This is what we're debating, your claim, that in equal cars, Vettel is a dream kid at poles, therefore you imply hed get pole over Hamilton, and by implication all the other drivers too.

My argument is not that Vettel isnt good enough (i dont beliee he is as good as some make out, but it is totally irrelvant), my argument is that we hae no way of knowing when his car is that good. Do we? Cause that red bull, and his toro rosso in 2008 were not "equal cars", hes never been in an equal front running car.

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

“There's a regulation which says the bodywork should be rigid, [but] we all know that's impossible because everything moves. It's a question of degrees, so the FIA has a series of tests to measure the degree to which bodywork moves – and as long as you pass those tests, then your car is to all intents and purposes legal.

“Those tests can change – in fact they changed over the winter because, as they do in a lot of areas, the FIA try and improve them. There's a new test this year. Red Bull obviously pass it, so that's all there is to say about it."

-- Ross Brawn

[f1ea]

i paid attention during the race, and RB's floor was definitely at an angle to the ground. much higher on the rear than front. The wing still flexes, but not much more than everyone else's... its their suspension allowing the wing to get closer to the tarmac while keeping everything moving along with the reference plane and entire sprung part of the car.

i knew it had to do with the suspension and the reference plane, because those are the only things that are outside the test's scope and leave room for movement. What is definitely a bit surprising is that its simply a matter of tilting the reference plane. Maybe there's more to it, having to do with RB's suspension that makes this easier because definitely the wing still moves in relation to the bodywork... but that sure leaves a lot of people scratching the heads.

[What's Burning?]

As noted on a previous post, here is the difference in the flex... it was taken from ray traced photographs at both extremes... that is impossible to achieve with purely with "suspension".

[f1ea]

As noted on a previous post, here is the difference in the flex... it was taken from ray traced photographs at both extremes... that is impossible to achieve with purely with "suspension".

why is it impossible? what is the scale on this drawing? what is the actual deflection? 40mm? and under what load is it achieved?

The new stricter tests already allow 20mm under 100kg... that's only a guideline load to establish what sort of materials are being used, but it doesnt limit the maximum load actually acting on the wing, for all we know, the RB wing can load 200kg for a 40mm deflection, when you add suspension compression, that is a lot (specially in a car that's only about 75mm above the ground); you could have the front basically scraping the tarmac without ever being under the reference plane, because the reference plane also moves with the suspension.

But the reference plane actually is a projection, because the plank doesnt really reach the front wing, so being no lower than the 'reference plane' is actually being no lower than the projection of the reference plane. The projection of an inclined plane can be lower than the last 'real' point of the plane (near where the nose cone attaches). i'll place a drawing in a minute...

[killem2]

I am assuming by that ray tracing that if the suspension was the culprit then the green line around the nose would be off of the red one.

[f1ea]

See what happens when the reference point is inclined. the lower sketch is simply tilting the reference plane 10º. They can control the initial angle with different suspension set up, and they can even have varying angles under different load, depending on the stiffness of the front/rear suspension. Basically, they can put that wing wherever they want without breaking the rules he he