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[vlad]

Well done mate!
Only one thing more: it's Vettel, not Vettel!

[texasmr2]

Well done mate!
Only one thing more: it's Vettel, not Vettel!

I cannot remember who it was that pronounced Vettel as Vettel, maybe Webber, but it's only a pun .

[Denthúl]

The Brawn 2009 car and RBR 2010 car had pretty similar advantages over rival teams during the season, the main difference being Button took advantage early on in 2009 with his 6 wins before the rest of the teams caught up on pace compared to 2010 where no one really caught RBR but they couldn't hold a lead due to mistakes during races.

So if you are going to claim Buttons championship was because of his car the exact same can be said for Vettel.

That is so confused -- and wrong -- I hardly know where to begin. Except to point out the obvious.

Button had the one glory season and apart that he is a perpetual mid-field driver. He has averaged one win for every 27 starts and raced more than six seasons before his first victory. Excluding his rookie season, his average WDC result is 9. Three seasons he was outside the top 10.

Vettel began winning in his first full season, on the occasion of his 22nd start. He has averaged one win for every 6.2 starts. Excluding his rookie half-season, his average WDC result is 3.7.

Even in his rookie season, when he contested just eight of 17 races, Vettel still came ahead of Button in WDC, and Button started all 17 races. It bears noting Vettel then was driving for Toro Rosso, not Red Bull. Button has taken pole an average of once each 24 starts. Vettel averages taking pole every fourth race.

Brawn's dominance in 2009 stemmed from the fact that the FIA made a dramatic change to tyre spec too soon to the beginning of the season, which gave all the other cars unbalanced grip biased to the front. Brawn's shadow diffuser gave them substantially better balance ...until the other teams managed to copy Brawn's design. That marked the end of Brawn's dominance, and the end of Button's winning ways.

Vettel clearly is a world-class talent who finds himself in a competitive car. Button is an also-ran who ran the luck of one season in a world-beating car. Barring such extraordinary luck, Button never would have won a single WDC. Even if he is cursed with the luck of Job, Vettel will win more.

Is that a serious post?

[Gaz]

The Brawn 2009 car and RBR 2010 car had pretty similar advantages over rival teams during the season, the main difference being Button took advantage early on in 2009 with his 6 wins before the rest of the teams caught up on pace compared to 2010 where no one really caught RBR but they couldn't hold a lead due to mistakes during races.

So if you are going to claim Buttons championship was because of his car the exact same can be said for Vettel.

That is so confused -- and wrong -- I hardly know where to begin. Except to point out the obvious.

Button had the one glory season and apart that he is a perpetual mid-field driver. He has averaged one win for every 27 starts and raced more than six seasons before his first victory. Excluding his rookie season, his average WDC result is 9. Three seasons he was outside the top 10.

Vettel began winning in his first full season, on the occasion of his 22nd start. He has averaged one win for every 6.2 starts. Excluding his rookie half-season, his average WDC result is 3.7.

Even in his rookie season, when he contested just eight of 17 races, Vettel still came ahead of Button in WDC, and Button started all 17 races. It bears noting Vettel then was driving for Toro Rosso, not Red Bull. Button has taken pole an average of once each 24 starts. Vettel averages taking pole every fourth race.

Brawn's dominance in 2009 stemmed from the fact that the FIA made a dramatic change to tyre spec too soon to the beginning of the season, which gave all the other cars unbalanced grip biased to the front. Brawn's shadow diffuser gave them substantially better balance ...until the other teams managed to copy Brawn's design. That marked the end of Brawn's dominance, and the end of Button's winning ways.

Vettel clearly is a world-class talent who finds himself in a competitive car. Button is an also-ran who ran the luck of one season in a world-beating car. Barring such extraordinary luck, Button never would have won a single WDC. Even if he is cursed with the luck of Job, Vettel will win more.

The Brawn 09 Car was not as dominant as the 2010 Red Bull considering the seasons as a whole.

Button Lead from the start and until the end and won his WDC 1 race early

Button didn't take out his team mate, or another McLaren Driver when he overtook them.

Button didn't need parts of Rubens car to win.

Branwns Diffuer was quickly copied after the first 6 races and they slipped into becoming a midfield team yet it was a legal part even after it was dragged though a FIA hearing.

Red Bulls Flexi Front wing has not been copied and it is actually against the rules the FIA are just sitting on their hands rather than banning the thing.


Button is a more worthy Champion than Vettle on the basis of the above and his action in Brazil 09

If vettle was in brazil 09 in the same car and the same championship position he would of gone STRAIGHT THOUGH Kobi's Toyota.

He won 2010 though other drivers mistakes and a few good poles.

[vlad]

Nope, that just ain't it...
Fred's arguments are better...

[f1ea]

Nope, that just ain't it...
Fred's arguments are better...

i stand somewhere in the middle between Fred and Gaz 's opinions.....

one thing is fo sure.... Vetel will achieve more in f1 than Jenson.

[Denthúl]

Button is a more worthy Champion than Vettle on the basis of the above and his action in Brazil 09

If vettle was in brazil 09 in the same car and the same championship position he would of gone STRAIGHT THOUGH Kobi's Toyota.

He won 2010 though other drivers mistakes and a few good poles.

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. Vettel, in Brazil 2009, was in a similar position (he had to win the race or finish second just to have a chance of keeping his title hopes alive, and that depended on Button not finishing too close to him), qualified behind Button yet finished the race ahead of him.

He won in 2010 through scoring the most points. You can argue the mistakes all you want, but he still lost several big points hauls to reliability issues which you conveniently leave out of your post.

Now, Silverstone is questionable because it was the one where he didn't fall from a comfortable lead due to reliability problems, although you could consider the wing/nose incident to be a reliability issue. I've not adjusted the score for that race but it should be taken in to consideration. This gives him a total of 319pts for the season: 63 points (and possibly more) lost due to reliability issues. Even taking other drivers' mistakes in to consideration, I find it quite hard to believe that he would have lost the championship based on that score. He suffered worse reliability, and lost more points as a result of it, than any of the other title contenders.

Yes, it's all a case of "what if", but let's look at it this way. So is saying that without their mistakes, another driver would have won the championship. Thing is, those drivers made their mistakes (as did Vettel with his own). Part of winning a title is about trying not to make mistakes, surely?

Likewise, with the comments made on Button's championship win, his talent played a huge part in that and putting it all down to the car is just unfair.

[vlad]

[bud]

This age old debate of a worthy champion is stupid.

[texasmr2]

This age old debate of a worthy champion is stupid.

[Hammer278]

The Brawn 09 Car was not as dominant as the 2010 Red Bull considering the seasons as a whole.

Button Lead from the start and until the end and won his WDC 1 race early

Button didn't take out his team mate, or another McLaren Driver when he overtook them.

Button didn't need parts of Rubens car to win.

Branwns Diffuer was quickly copied after the first 6 races and they slipped into becoming a midfield team yet it was a legal part even after it was dragged though a FIA hearing.

Red Bulls Flexi Front wing has not been copied and it is actually against the rules the FIA are just sitting on their hands rather than banning the thing.


Button is a more worthy Champion than Vettle on the basis of the above and his action in Brazil 09

If vettle was in brazil 09 in the same car and the same championship position he would of gone STRAIGHT THOUGH Kobi's Toyota.

He won 2010 though other drivers mistakes and a few good poles.

___________________________________________________


You're just nitpicking here, mostly. The italics are simply your opinion with no facts backing it up.

Your last line is your own opinion. No facts. Everyone made mistakes in 2010...it was a closely fought season and there was PRESSURE. 2009 there was no pressure after the 4th or 5th race of the season...it was on the wall!!

Fred killed this Button VS Vettel argument. Could we move on to why Horner's PR skills are in meltdown mode?

[scotty]

2009 there was no pressure after the 4th or 5th race of the season...it was on the wall!!

Fred killed this Button VS Vettel argument.

These also are simply a matter of opinion.

Could we move on to why Horner's PR skills are in meltdown mode?

Who knows. I don't think it's his PR skills though, the media are just doing their usual to create any story they can... no mind games here, nothing.

[Jensonb]

Bite me, Horner. McLaren's driver pairing torches yours and you know it. You think people are thick? We all know you'd rather have Lewis or Button in one of your cars, and you'd be pretty GD happy with both

[Hammer278]

2009 there was no pressure after the 4th or 5th race of the season...it was on the wall!!

Fred killed this Button VS Vettel argument.

These also are simply a matter of opinion.

First one turned out to be a fact!!

Second one was indeed an opinion, based on a member's argument. Not F1.

[stonemonkey]

.........
Button had the one glory season and apart that he is a perpetual mid-field driver. He has averaged one win for every 27 starts and raced more than six seasons before his first victory. Excluding his rookie season, his average WDC result is 9. Three seasons he was outside the top 10.
.......

You fail to mention that in 2004 he came 3rd behind the two Ferraris though. Also that two of those three seasons finishing outside the top ten were because Honda/Brawn deliberately made no attempt whatsoever to give him a car capable of competing.